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Is it possible to proofread 2000 (source) words per hour?
Thread poster: Li-Hsiang Hsu
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
I don't think so Mar 15, 2018

I struggle to check 2000 words of my own output in an hour, so I really can't see it happening with someone else's, however good it might be.

 
Lian Pang
Lian Pang  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 16:05
Member (2018)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Not realistic Mar 15, 2018

Proofreading 2000 words per hour is not possible at all if you are a responsible proofreader. We need to check both source and target, also make amendments along the way, which will slow us down significantly. This is just a ridiculous request from the client. Explain to them 2000 wph is only possible when you proofread ONLY the target text.

 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:05
French to English
1,000 Mar 16, 2018

When I worked in-house, we were expected to check in the way you describe at a rate of 1,000 words/hour. We didn't have to fill in any stupid assessment forms though.

There were a couple of brilliant translators for whom I managed to check 2,000 words/hour, but only because I knew I could trust their terminology and there were barely ever any mistakes.
(One is now working at the International Court in the Hague. I wrote a reference for her and the woman who called to check t
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When I worked in-house, we were expected to check in the way you describe at a rate of 1,000 words/hour. We didn't have to fill in any stupid assessment forms though.

There were a couple of brilliant translators for whom I managed to check 2,000 words/hour, but only because I knew I could trust their terminology and there were barely ever any mistakes.
(One is now working at the International Court in the Hague. I wrote a reference for her and the woman who called to check that it was true could barely believe all the wonderful things I said. And it's true that I lost a great translator when she got the job, but she thoroughly deserved it!)
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Vladimir Pochinov
Vladimir Pochinov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 17:05
English to Russian
Proofreading vs editing Mar 16, 2018

As I understand, some colleagues mix up the above terms or use them interchangeably, while the time and effort involved are different. Proofreading does not actually require sight of the source document (or might include checking for any parts omitted in translation).

 
Li-Hsiang Hsu
Li-Hsiang Hsu  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:05
French to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
proofreading/copy editing/review/revision Mar 16, 2018

Vladimir,
Thank you for reminding us. Actually, what I intend to say here is "copy editing." I think I should modify my title to avoid confusion.

This said, if those terms are frequently mixed up by many colleagues, it is because the term proofreading can sometimes refer to copy editing in a broad sense, while inversely, copy editing can't refer to proofreading in its narrow sense.

I receive very oft
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Vladimir,
Thank you for reminding us. Actually, what I intend to say here is "copy editing." I think I should modify my title to avoid confusion.

This said, if those terms are frequently mixed up by many colleagues, it is because the term proofreading can sometimes refer to copy editing in a broad sense, while inversely, copy editing can't refer to proofreading in its narrow sense.

I receive very often job offers called "proofreading", but what I am requested to do is not a proofreading job in a narrow sense. Instead, what I have to do is checking on style, content, meaning, punctuation, grammar, usage, cultural issues, and terminological consistency, etc. against the source text. Many clients don't call this kind of task "copy-editing," but simply "proofreading."
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Li-Hsiang Hsu
Li-Hsiang Hsu  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:05
French to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Practices Mar 16, 2018

Daniel Frisano wrote:

I hope it doesn't sound like bragging. My comment was only intended to demonstrate the results of tons of practice, and the luck of working between languages (usually English to Italian) that do not differ too much in their flow. After all, I have been studying and applying English for some 35 years now.

It gets to the point that I actually translate anew the source document in my head and check my mental translation against what I hear from TextAloud. I'd be curious to know if anyone else follows the same scheme.

Daniel,
I imagine (just imagining), with practices and experiences and tools, we can probably copy-edit or proofread texts at a higher rate as you do. And if the syntactical flows of target and source languages are very similar, I imagine that we can proofread or edit the target text as you do with TextAloud. But that won't happen on French(English)-Chinese, because the language flows are too different. This said, I will never attain your rate.


 
Li-Hsiang Hsu
Li-Hsiang Hsu  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:05
French to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
@Chris Mar 16, 2018

Chris S wrote:

I struggle to check 2000 words of my own output in an hour, so I really can't see it happening with someone else's, however good it might be.


Yes, a bit more than 2000 wph, that is about my output while proofreading and reviewing my own translations.


 
Vladimir Pochinov
Vladimir Pochinov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 17:05
English to Russian
Why clients like to request proofreading rather than editing Mar 16, 2018

Li-Hsiang Hsu wrote:

I receive very often job offers called "proofreading", but what I am requested to do is not a proofreading job in a narrow sense. Instead, what I have to do is checking on style, content, meaning, punctuation, grammar, usage, cultural issues, and terminological consistency, etc. against the source text. Many clients don't call this kind of task "copy-editing," but simply "proofreading."



This might well be an act of verbal juggling to avoid paying more for a more time-consuming exercise.

See a typical example below.

The client says: We expect that proofreading of the text - 2,000 words - will take 2 hours @ 1,000 words per hour.
The worst-case scenario: You re-translate 2,000 words for approx. 1/3 of your regular rate for translation... The big question is... are you capable of translating 1,000 words within one hour?

Conclusion: Never agree to any standard assumption of time and effort involved, such as 1,000 words per hour, until you have reviewed the document carefully.


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:05
French to English
careful reviewing Mar 17, 2018

Vladimir Pochinov wrote:

Conclusion: Never agree to any standard assumption of time and effort involved, such as 1,000 words per hour, until you have reviewed the document carefully.


I would agree, except I find that I make changes bit by bit. First I'll correct the glaring typo, then I'll move a bit to a more logical place in the sentence, then I'll decide to use a different verb requiring a slightly different arrangement of prepositions, and then I'll end up changing the sentence round entirely. So I have to actually start work to gain an idea of how much is left to do. So billing per hour once the work has been completed is the only way that works for me.


 
Vladimir Pochinov
Vladimir Pochinov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 17:05
English to Russian
Billing per hour upon project completion - the ideal approach from the translator's perspective Mar 17, 2018

Texte Style wrote:
So I have to actually start work to gain an idea of how much is left to do. So billing per hour once the work has been completed is the only way that works for me.


While I certainly agree that translators would love this arrangement, clients may be reluctant to accept it due to their fear of the so-called "scope creep".

Scope creep (also called requirement creep, function creep, or kitchen sink syndrome) in project management refers to changes, continuous or uncontrolled growth in a project’s scope, at any point after the project begins.

Scope creep can be a result of poor change control; lack of proper initial identification of what is required to bring about the project objectives; weak project manager or executive sponsor; poor communication between parties; lack of initial product versatility.

Scope creep is a risk in most projects. Most megaprojects fall victim to scope creep ... that often results in cost overrun.

Scope creep can occasionally have incidentally positive results. For example, the video game "The Elder Scrolls: Arena" was originally intended to be a "medieval style gladiator game", but due to scope creep, the game quickly expanded into an open-world, epic role-playing game (without the titular arena combat at all), spawning several successful sequels of increasing complexity.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_creep


 
Mohammad Ibrahim
Mohammad Ibrahim  Identity Verified
Pakistan
Local time: 20:05
English to Pashto (Pushto)
+ ...
No Mar 18, 2018

That's called reading. Proofreading is more difficult than translation.

 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:05
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Why? Mar 18, 2018

M Ibrahim wrote:

That's called reading. Proofreading is more difficult than translation.


I didn't get it. Why is proofreading more difficult than translation?


 
Li-Hsiang Hsu
Li-Hsiang Hsu  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:05
French to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Unavoidable uncertainty Mar 18, 2018

Vladimir Pochinov wrote:

While I certainly agree that translators would love this arrangement, clients may be reluctant to accept it due to their fear of the so-called "scope creep".



Business is not a precision science. In business, we confront frequently, if not every day, all kinds of uncertainties. “Scope creep” is merely one of them - probably not the most uncontrollable one.

To handle this uncertainty, I believe both translators and clients can have, on the basis of their experiences, a rough estimation of the reasonable time range that a work should be done. So it should not be unacceptable if the number of working hours reported by a translator is located in this expected time range.

My work is rarely paid on an hourly rate basis, but when it is, I give always an estimated number of hours with a deviation of +10% or – 10% so that the client can judge on their own or ask for another quote. But both of us have to accept the fact that there’s inherent uncertainty in this kind of situation, and it is certainly not the translator, but the nature of the work in itself, when it is not possible to quote on a per word rate basis, which is responsible of that uncertainty.


 
Vladimir Pochinov
Vladimir Pochinov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 17:05
English to Russian
Proofreading - A rough estimate (+/-10%) based on your hourly rate, rather than a fixed project cost Mar 18, 2018

Li-Hsiang Hsu wrote:

... give ... an estimated number of hours with a deviation of +10% or – 10% so that the client can judge on their own or ask for another quote.



+1 My approach as well


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:05
French to English
scope creep Mar 18, 2018

Vladimir Pochinov wrote:

Texte Style wrote:
So I have to actually start work to gain an idea of how much is left to do. So billing per hour once the work has been completed is the only way that works for me.


While I certainly agree that translators would love this arrangement, clients may be reluctant to accept it due to their fear of the so-called "scope creep".

Scope creep (also called requirement creep, function creep, or kitchen sink syndrome) in project management refers to changes, continuous or uncontrolled growth in a project’s scope, at any point after the project begins.

Scope creep can be a result of poor change control; lack of proper initial identification of what is required to bring about the project objectives; weak project manager or executive sponsor; poor communication between parties; lack of initial product versatility.

Scope creep is a risk in most projects. Most megaprojects fall victim to scope creep ... that often results in cost overrun.

Scope creep can occasionally have incidentally positive results. For example, the video game "The Elder Scrolls: Arena" was originally intended to be a "medieval style gladiator game", but due to scope creep, the game quickly expanded into an open-world, epic role-playing game (without the titular arena combat at all), spawning several successful sequels of increasing complexity.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_creep


that's interesting, I'd never heard that term. I think perhaps the last part of the "process" I was describing (rewriting entirely) could be deemed scope creep by some clients. The trouble is, they don't have the ability to truly assess my work: even those who speak English well may not be able to discern the difference in tone or grasp why I had to do as much as I did.

Trouble is that they want something impeccable, and they want it cheap, and they also don't want me to completely rewrite their translation because that would mean the translator was rubbish, and they're sick of having to ditch translators and find new ones...
I remember rewriting a brochure that the end client had translated himself. He could negotiate with English-speakers in his business, and clinched deals, so he had this idea that his English was brilliant. Well it was good enough for talking, but not for the brochure advertising the company. He had hired a pro to write his brochure in his native language though...

Scope creep can be a factor, however I think it's often more that the client doesn't trust us to declare an honest amount.

[Edited at 2018-03-18 07:59 GMT]


 
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Is it possible to proofread 2000 (source) words per hour?







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