Mert Dirice Dec 30, 2017:

The term target audience has quite a different connotation that's mainly commercial in nature. It's not related to the wider audience phrases simply because they contain the same word. It's just a word; the contextual intent here is what really matters. And even if we were to focus on 'target audience,' it translates into 'hedef kitlesi' and that would at best show why 'audience' is a good fit in this case.

ZMN Dec 30, 2017:

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/target-audience...
A particular group of people that is identified as the intended recipient of an advertisement, product, or campaign. Also called target audience.

Your examples relates to the term: Target Audience. I still think that Masses is more precise term in our specific case.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-30/can-techn...

Mert Dirice Dec 29, 2017:

And here's some examples on diet, not because it's still related to food --that's a coincidence-- but because it touches on the active participant / merely observer issue:
https://goo.gl/V32QH3
'His diet gained a wider audience'
https://goo.gl/jScNdM
'and the diet found a wider audience'
The wider audience here isn't watching other people eat, they're adopting said diets, participating if you will.

Now even if the concern behind your objection has to do with accuracy, the rationale behind it is, as demonstrated, false.

Mert Dirice Dec 29, 2017:

And going back to the kepek ekmek question: "Örneğin KEPEK EKMEK KULLANIMINI GENİŞ KİTLELERE YAYIP BEYAZ EKMEK TÜKETİMİNİ AZALTACAĞIZ cümlesinde de mi Audience kullanılacak?" Yes, as evidenced by:
https://goo.gl/UpvyGa
'Packaged Facts expects several of these new and novel non-dairy milks to find a wider audience'
https://goo.gl/UfPX5v
'Foods that conform to Islamic law find a wider audience'
https://goo.gl/Ex9ADQ
'To make organic foods available to a wider audience'
https://goo.gl/LimF9g
'While used primarily by vegetarians and vegans as a source of protein, I think it is high time for it to be introduced to a wider audience'

I've been trying to explain since noon that to reach/find a wider/broader audience does not have to literally refer to the type of audience found at a football game or a concert.

Mert Dirice Dec 29, 2017:

And the example given 'opiate of the masses' being an overtly political one only goes to prove my point that it's ill-founded to be used in this situation.

Masses doesn't look ill-fitted in those CNN and Guardian articles because of the same reason I already described: they're both alluding to golf's elitist image. And saying 'ortada kinaye yok' isn't much of a refutal.

And the argument against 'audience' for merely representing the observing side remains stuck on its lexical meaning and completely ignoring its context and functional capacity.

Mert Dirice Dec 29, 2017:

2. kepek ekmek: again, that it doesn't work in one example doesn't disprove its validity in the other. sports have audiences, not confined to the people watching them. From the journalists to the fans to the players or youth aspiring to play one day, everyone who's interested or invested somehow in that sport can easily be called its audience. At the risk of being repetitive, seeking to find difference between audience as the observer and everyone who have an interest in the field, is pedantic and also not awfully on-point because, again, language isn't bound by the literal definitions of words.

Mert Dirice Dec 29, 2017:

Let's take a look at efforts to make audience look awkward in certain situations by our colleague:
1. "replace mass in 'a sport of the masses' with audience" there is no point in taking a single word out of a figurative phrase and placing it in a different context. Most words wouldn't make sense given the same treatment. Imagine if one article said 'you can't judge people by the color of their skin' and another said 'you can't judge a book by its cover', both going for the same conclusion. Now imagine if I said 'replace people by book and see if that makes sense.' Lol no it wouldn't, and neither would what I just said.

ZMN Dec 29, 2017:

"literal approach, which often results in non-native sounding translation" diyorsun; CNN ve Guardian'daki MASS kelimesinin doğal bir şekilde, tercüme kokmadan, kullanıldığını gördük. Azınlık - çoğunluk kinayesi iddiasına gelirsek; ortada kinaye yok. Golf haricinde bir örneğe bakalım. Örneğin KEPEK EKMEK KULLANIMINI GENİŞ KİTLELERE YAYIP BEYAZ EKMEK TÜKETİMİNİ AZALTACAĞIZ cümlesinde de mi Audience kullanılacak? Mass kullanırken kinaye mi olacak? Golfün geniş kitlelere yayılması durumunda da tam olarak bu amaç söz konusu. Örneğin spor için Opiate of the Masses (Kitlelerin Afyonu) diyenler var. Kullanım çok doğal. Burada MASS kelimesinin kullanımı LITERAL bir çeviri değil EN DOĞRU çeviridir. AUDIENCE'ın kullanımı spesifik durumlarda (seyircini, izleyicini, alıcını, tüketicini arttırmak istediğinde) kullanılabilir. Ancak kitlelere yaymak söz konusuysa, MASS.

Mert Dirice Dec 29, 2017:

“took golf from being a game for the few to a sport of the masses” this is a political trope: the few vs the masses. In the examples provided news outlets are taking the liberty of intentionally employing it ironically, subtly taking a swipe at the highbrow profile the sport possesses. The reason they choose to use that particular analogy in fact has to do with the elitist image of golf, 'the few' in its original, political sense specifically refers to the elite, as opposed to the everyday people, 'the masses.'

The federation in the source material is communicating in a serious manner and not displaying any sort of irony or using similar quips. Thus the examples provided do not take away from the fact that unironically using the same trope just because it's the lexical counterpart of their words or for any other reason, would end up looking dramatic.

ZMN Dec 29, 2017:

"As for the suggested alternative 'kitle/masses,' this is again a literal approach, which often results in non-native sounding translation" says Mert. I just drop here below two links from CNN and Guardian against claims that MASS sounds non-native, smells like a literal translation of a word which does not sound native and natural in English.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/arnold-palmer-o...
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/sports/2015/01/08/spc-living-...

In Guardian's article, you will see a sentence: "As his great rival and friend Jack Nicklaus put it, Palmer “took golf from being a game for the few to a sport of the masses”. Now replaced Mass in that sentence with Audience, and then you will understand what I mean. :)

Mert Dirice Dec 29, 2017:

So in this instance when someone says 'audience' it does not in fact have to purely relate to observational entities-- e.g. when Messi hears that the CL draw is happening, he is interested, and in fact invested, in such news. In this case he is part of the wider audience of football, and boy is he an active participant himself.

The 'wider audience' isn't necessarily the audience that occupies a stadium etc (who themselves can be casual players btw), but instead it would be referring to the 'footballing world,' or the 'golfing world' in this example. So the distinction between an audience that exclusively engages in observation as opposed to perhaps partaking in the sport --casually or otherwise-- themselves, is an arbitrary one that doesn't warrant objection to using the proposed phrase.

As for the suggested alternative 'kitle/masses,' this is again a literal approach, which often results in non-native sounding translation. 'To reach / take st to the MASSES' sounds like something from a WW2 documentary rather than a conversation involving sports. Not only does it sound misplaced and unfamiliar but also needlessly political and dramatic.

Mert Dirice Dec 29, 2017:

Yeah but no one's watching children swinging away in the streets are they? Casual play is simply not an option w/ golf-- and this isn't really that complicated: golf is a niche sport, and especially in Turkey where niche subjects are virtually non-existent, they want to see it grow and have a more widespread/everyday image. Gotta love philosophy but this discussion doesn't necessarily call for it :)

Bisiklet konusundaysa yaygınlaştırılmaya çalışılan bisikletin ulaşım aracı veya hobi olarak kullanımı değil, spor bağlamındaki tanıtımı çok farklı bi şey. O yüzden örnek olarak güzel.

I think the main obstacle here is obsessing on the sole, literal meaning of the word audience. No, especially not with idioms, phrasal verbs and the like, no one word needs to be taken literally. To reach a wider audience means to make golf more popular and get it out of the bunker as you will. The lexical meaning of the word is evident already and there's no actual need to delve further into what it literally means since it's not a tricky word to define in this sense.

ZMN Dec 29, 2017:

Yeni oyuncu kitlesinin daha geniş izleyici kitlesi olmasına gelecek olursak. Kesinlikle katılıyorum. İcra eden kişi aynı zamanda iyi bir izleyicidir de (her ne kadar istisnalar olsa da). İşte ben kitle için mass'in kullanılmasında tam da bu nedenle ısrarlıyım. Hem izleyici hem oyuncuyu (amatör ve profesyonel) kapsıyor. Ama dediğim gibi audience daha pasif ve tüketici konumunda.

ZMN Dec 29, 2017:

Güzel bir tartışma konusu olacak galiba :) Mert Bey verdiğiniz linkte AUDIENCE (izleyici, seyirci) olarak kullanılabilir zira amaç daha geniş seyirci kitlesine ulaşmak da olabilir ve bisikletin geniş kitlelere ulaşmayı amaçlaması gerekmez zira futbol gibi zaten geniş kitlelerce gerçekleştirilen bir spordur. Bisikletin amacı belirli bir zümrenin izleyicisi olduğu bir spor olmaktan çıkıp daha geniş izleyiciye ulaşmaktır daha fazla kişinin yapması amacı da güdülebilir ancak halihazırda zaten yaygın olarak kullanılan bir araçtır.

ZMN Dec 29, 2017:

ON THE 'MASS VS. AUDIENCE' MATTER
What I understand from "Geniş Kitlelelere Ulaşmak" means getting more people involved (in a specific branch of sports) both as spectators and active players (not necessarily as professionals but amateurs as well). To me, audience sounds more like CONSUMER/RECEIVER (consuming/receiving what is offered to them) rather than an active participant. E.g. football already appeals to a wide audience but also has been loved and practiced by masses as you can see children playing football in the streets. Well, such children can be considered as an example of MASSES involved in the game rather than MERE AUDIENCE. So "Mass" is not only a literal translation for "Kitle" but rather the best fitting target term for it as "Kitle" includes but is not only limited to Audience. Reaching wider audience can be used for sports in specific cases but in our case, golfün geniş kitlelere ulaştırılması, does not only include appealing more audience but also more amateur players. As an audience, you can watch and listen to a performance but as a member of a mass involved in sports, you can also PERFORM it. http://edition.cnn.com/videos/sports/2015/01/08/spc-living-g...

Mert Dirice Dec 29, 2017:

Özmen bey ayrıca şu Independent makalesinde doğrudan golfün yaygınlaşması için, bisikleti daha popüler hale getirmeyi başarmış birini golf yönetimine davet etmekten bahsediliyor:
https://ibb.co/kNBeNG

Sporda yeni oyuncu kitlesi demek zaten daha geniş izleyici kitlesi demek; bunlar birbirinden ayrılmaz. Çoğu pro sporcu oyunun şiddetle hayranı / takipçisidir zaten.

Mert Dirice Dec 28, 2017:

enable değil ensure denmiş örnek cümlede ki herhangi bi alana özel bi fiil değil + reach a wider audience tam olarak örn golf gibi niş olan bi şeyin bilindik bi hal almasına değinir— alan dışı bi örnek ‘i just want my paleo warrior diet to reach a wider audience / become mainstream’

Zeki Güler Dec 28, 2017:

Gerçi cevabı seçmişsiniz. Enable fiili genellikle insan, kurum vs. aktif özneler için kullanılır; golf için uygun görünmedi bana. Bir de “reach a wider audience” daha ziyade mesajların kitlelere ulaşması şeklinde kullanılıyor. Burada kasdedilen yaygınlaşmak gibi birşey.

sabaay (asker) Dec 28, 2017:

reach a wider audience olduğunu biliyorum ama cümledeki kullanımını öğrenmek istedim yani. burda ulaşmasını sağlamak anlamında. Örneğin, It tries to enable golf reach a wider audience doğru gelmedii bana. Onu sormak istedim