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Implantation et guidage Laser
en donnant une dimension économique dans les investissements
Mar 13, 2015 22:12
9 yrs ago
2 viewers *
français term

incorrection de dessin

français vers anglais Art / Littérature Art, artisanat et peinture Art Criticism
I am working on a translation for an academic paper of mine that deals with some art stuff, which is a bit outside my range, and so I was wondering if there was some specific art terminology I should use in it.

The selection I’m translating is a description of Diderot’s reaction to Louis Jean-François Lagrenée’s “Mercure, Hersé et Aglaure jalouse de sa sœur” in his “Salon de 1767,” one of the first works written of modern art criticism.


“C’était une incorrection, mais une si cruelle incorrection de dessin que j’éprouvai une peine mortelle de voir une des meilleures compositions du Salon gâtée par un défaut énorme.”

I have this as:

“There was an inexactitude, so cruel an inexactitude of drawing, that I suffered a mortal anguish to see one of the best compositions of the Salon spoiled by an enormous flaw.”

The phrase I’m having trouble with is “inexactitude of drawing.” (If you want to know what it is, Herse’s leg is too long.). Is there a phrase for this sort of thing that’s used in English? I found “exactitude of drawing” here and there on the internet, but not enough for me to feel confident about it.

Thanks.
Proposed translations (anglais)
3 +3 irregularity in/of draughtsmanship
3 +3 flaw ... blot
4 +2 lapse of / in draughtsmanship
5 inaccurate drawing
4 awkwardness

Discussion

Arthur Kölzow (asker) Mar 17, 2015:
Thanks for everyone's help with this translation. I go a lot of good perspectives on the issue.
Michael Wetzel Mar 16, 2015:
Why reinvent the wheel? Just cite the passage from the well-known translation, which was done by a very good translator and features an introduction by a leading Anglophone expert on this period in French art. I think that Goodman and Crow certainly know what Diderot is trying to say here about one of the fundmental critical concepts of the period and that they gave a lot of thought to figuring out how to express it in English. Standard practice is to quote (and properly cite) an existing translation unless there is a very good reason not to do so.
Arthur Kölzow (asker) Mar 15, 2015:
"Diderot mixed up the legs!" I hadn't noticed that. Interesting. I
Helen Shiner Mar 14, 2015:
@Barbara My thoughts entirely!
B D Finch Mar 14, 2015:
@Helen But it might be attached to the hip of the person hiding under the cushions and whose right knee forms what is disguised as the corner of the bed! This leaves the whereabouts of Herse's left leg open to scurrilous speculation!
kashew Mar 14, 2015:
I took incorrection = maladresse = awkwardness (clumsiness?)
Some more reading: http://utpictura18.univ-montp3.fr/Diderot/GenerateurTexte.ph...
Diderot mixed up the legs! See II: Diderot commence sans transition par décrire la disposition des personnages :
« Hersé, à gauche, est assise. Elle a sa jambe droite [?] étendue et posée sur le genou [cuisse!] gauche de Mercure. On la voit de profil. Mercure, vu de face est assis devant elle, un peu plus bas et un peu plus sur le fond. Tout à fait vers la droite, Aglaure écartant un rideau, regarde d’un œil colère et jaloux le bonheur de sa sœur. » (DPV XVI 134.)
Charles Davis Mar 14, 2015:
I must admit you do find yourself wondering about what's going on under the drapery.
Helen Shiner Mar 14, 2015:
@kashew Ah yes, that leg couldn't possibly be attached to the figure's hip!
kashew Mar 14, 2015:
The work in question: http://sites.univ-provence.fr/pictura/GenerateurNotice.php?n...
Helen Shiner Mar 14, 2015:
@Charles Quite, perfectly standard art historical terminology.
Charles Davis Mar 14, 2015:
Draughtsman/draughtsmanship "draughtsman
1 A person who makes detailed technical plans or drawings.
1.1 An artist skilled in drawing."
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/drau...

"draughtsmanship
the ability to draw well"
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/draugh...

I don't think there would any risk of the word being misunderstood as referring to technical drawing here. It's a perfect standard term used in discussing artistic drawing.
Charles Davis Mar 14, 2015:
@Robin If I wished to hold a private conversation with Helen I would do it by email, not here. This area cannot be private.

As for posting, I prefer to wait until I think I've found something that satisfies me. A discussion like this is extremely helpful in that respect (as well as being a great pleasure, and what's wrong with that?).

I think draftsmanship/draughtsmanship is better than drawing in this sentence.

I think flaw is a good candidate here. It is, after all, a word with moral connotations.

At the moment I'm thinking of lapse, but I'm not going to post it (yet).
Arthur Kölzow (asker) Mar 14, 2015:
“Then maybe 'irregularity' comes closest. Irregular morals, irregularity of draughtsmanship? I will post and Robin and others can shoot it down in flames, if they wish ;)”

That opens up words like, “irregularity,” “distortion,” “inconsistency,” and “imperfection.” That’s an idea too.
Helen Shiner Mar 14, 2015:
@Arthur Then maybe 'irregularity' comes closest. Irregular morals, irregularity of draughtsmanship? I will post and Robin and others can shoot it down in flames, if they wish ;)
Arthur Kölzow (asker) Mar 14, 2015:
“For me, the sense is that the critic perceives this passage in the painting to be going against what he thinks are the laws of draughtsmanship, indeed, against what was no doubt part of the received wisdom at the time.”

This is pretty much what my paper is about. A link between aesthetics and morals.

Anyway, in the absence of a technical translation (which does not appear to exist), what I want is a word that means “small mistake that carries with it a connotation of moral failure.” For that, I’m tempted to go with “error” or perhaps just using the “incorrection.” The problem with that for me is that “error in drawing,” error of drawing,” “incorrection in drawing,” and “incorrection of drawing” all sound terrible.
Helen Shiner Mar 14, 2015:
@Robin This is not a private conversation. It is an area for discussion, so please just join in.
Helen Shiner Mar 14, 2015:
@Charles Irregularity, anomaly of draughtsmanship???
Jennifer Levey Mar 14, 2015:
@Helen and Charles Please post answers to the question - and expose them to being shot down in flames (or praised for their perspicacity, if appropriate) - instead of continuing your private conversation here in the discussion box.
Charles Davis Mar 14, 2015:
That's more like it Transgression, if not the right word, is pretty close. I was thinking of synonyms for solecism. Something that suggests indecency.
Helen Shiner Mar 14, 2015:
@Charles Yes, I think it goes beyond a mere mistake. Which is why I personally would try to find something other than just 'flaw'. It is more a transgression in my view, though obviously one would not use that particular word. Will keep thinking, or rather, retire to bed in the hope of clarity in the morning...
Charles Davis Mar 14, 2015:
@Helen But I agree with you (or at least with what I think you're implying) that although "incorrection" basically seems to refer to a technical error here (manque de correction, like a grammatical error), there is also a suggestion almost of impropriety. And I don't think there's any doubt that in the kind of aesthetics Diderot is expounding, artistic values are morally loaded.
Helen Shiner Mar 14, 2015:
@Charles My comment had wider application than just this passage. I agree, though, that here there is also a sense of physical pain.
Charles Davis Mar 14, 2015:
Published translation Not just morally offended but physically pained:

"I felt all these things and was transported by them when, having backed away from the picture, I uttered a shriek of pain, as if I'd been wounded by a violent blow. There was a flaw, a cruel flaw in the draftsmanship, and it pained me deeply to see that one of the finest compositions in the Salon was spoiled by so enormous a fault. Herse's leg, which ends with so beautiful a foot, the leg resting on the beautiful, precious knee of Mercury, is too long by a good four fingers [...]."
Diderot on Art – II: The Salon of 1767, ed. and trans. John Goodman (Yale University Press, 1995), p. 55.
https://books.google.es/books?id=nUmWP2q_vhAC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA...

Original here:
https://books.google.es/books?id=RjMHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA217&lpg=P...
Helen Shiner Mar 13, 2015:
@Arthur For me, the sense is that the critic perceives this passage in the painting to be going against what he thinks are the laws of draughtsmanship, indeed, against what was no doubt part of the received wisdom at the time. A challenge to the orthodoxy, if you like, such as I have met in early criticism of Casper David Friedrich's work. It is interesting that in seeking to find a language for criticism, these early critics tend to be almost morally offended by what they see.

All of which is to say that inexactitude rings true to me. Would 'such inexact draughtsmanship' work better than 'inexactitude of drawing'? And maybe, for the whole phrase: 'Here was inexactitude, such inexact draughtsmanship' or something along those lines....

Proposed translations

+3
2 heures
Selected

irregularity in/of draughtsmanship

See discussion box for thought process and further comments.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2015-03-14 01:00:35 GMT)
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Arthur Mayger Hind notes of his style that "he is an artist with a freedom of draughtsmanship quite remarkable at this epoch. If his manner of engraving has something of the irregularity of an amateur, his power of expression is vigorous and masterly."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_the_Housebook
Note from asker:
Thanks for the research!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Jennifer Levey : Louis Jean-François Lagrenée was not in any sense of the word a 'draughtsman', and did not engage in 'draughtsmanship'.
7 minutes
Robin, all artists of the period were trained to draw and all composition required draughtsmanship, even if with the paintbrush. Your comment makes no sense.
agree Charles Davis : It's certainly an option. (Robin is quite wrong about "draughtsman", of course.)
19 minutes
Thanks, let's keep thinking. There are bound to be other options. I like the direction your 'lapse' is going.
agree Luna Jungblut : Nicest option to my ear :)
8 heures
Thanks, Luna
agree B D Finch
16 heures
Thank you, B D Finch
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+3
55 minutes

flaw ... blot

I'd be very tempted to translate 'incorrection' differently in each phrase:

C’était une incorrection, mais une si cruelle incorrection de dessin que ...
--> for example:
It was a flaw; nay! it was a cruel blot on the drawing that ...

I'll leave Asker to find something for 'un défaut énorme' which escalates the sentiments appropriately after that opening :)
Note from asker:
That is an interesting idea. I'll have to think a bit in that direction.
Peer comment(s):
agree Charles Davis : Flaw is used by John Goodman in his published translation (see discussion area) and I think it's a valid option.
1 heure
agree writeaway
1 heure
agree Luna Jungblut : Totally valid option
9 heures
Something went wrong...
+2
3 heures

lapse of / in draughtsmanship

OK, I'll throw my hat into the ring too. I think lapse covers the bases we've been talking about: an error, a technical mistake, but also a failing with moral connotations: "incorrection" in the sense of improper behaviour, falling short of the ideal.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2015-03-14 01:28:32 GMT)
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An example of this very expression:

"Despite their keen characterization, the human figures are much less satisfactory in their drawing than those of The Blacksmith's Shop, an early indication of the kind of lapse in draughtsmanshipthat was to recur in Turner's figure drawing later."
Andrew Wilton, Turner as Draughtsman (Aldershot & Burlington, VT: Ashgate, 2006), 116.
https://books.google.es/books?id=4R1jWTaYxAAC&pg=PA116&lpg=P...
Note from asker:
Thanks for finding this cite.
Peer comment(s):
agree Helen Shiner : Asker spoilt for choice now!
5 heures
Thanks, Helen! Yes, and it was fun thinking about it. Best regards
agree B D Finch
16 heures
Thanks!
Something went wrong...
14 heures

awkwardness

Ex: The slight awkwardness of the Ashmolean drawing was probably the result of Raphael's having to incorporate into the composition [...]

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Note added at 16 heures (2015-03-14 14:23:26 GMT)
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anatomical blunder!

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Note added at 16 heures (2015-03-14 14:50:53 GMT)
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"Crude anatomical blunder"!

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Note added at 16 heures (2015-03-14 14:55:48 GMT)
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Or is it a case of artist's license?

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Note added at 16 heures (2015-03-14 14:57:27 GMT)
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Liberty-taking?

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Note added at 1 jour17 heures (2015-03-15 15:18:33 GMT)
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The second occurrence "cruelle incorrection de dessin", could translate as "grievous distortion"

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Note added at 1 jour17 heures (2015-03-15 15:18:57 GMT)
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GBH!
Something went wrong...
1 jour 19 heures

inaccurate drawing

Something went wrong...
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