Aug 30, 2017 18:05
6 yrs ago
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German term

lyrischer Vorwurf

German to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature Japanese haiku
Den Tenor eines solchen Gedichtes, das nicht selten eine Länge von 1000 Versen überstieg, bestimmte der vom Meister oder Ehrengast geschaffene lyrische Vorwurf des hokku.

Discussion

Helen Shiner Aug 30, 2017:
@Björn You should post it as an answer.
Stephen Old (asker) Aug 30, 2017:
lyrische Vorwurf Thanks, I did wonder about these apparently conflicting answers but I will find the appropriate linguistic reconciliation in the morning when I am fresh.
Björn Vrooman Aug 30, 2017:
@Helen Cf first and third discussion post. While your suggestion works well in other contexts, it would turn the meaning on its head here. With a hokku, you're supposed to be gracious and thank the host, not admonish him.

The point is that this opening verse is thought to set the stage for the other poets to chime in, i.e., so they know what to say in their stanzas (thus, "Vorwurf"). Cf the question about "treffen."

Best
Helen Shiner Aug 30, 2017:
@Stephen No Twitter reply, but no problem. I'm super busy, too ;)
Helen Shiner Aug 30, 2017:
@Björn I think your suggestion is also possible. Vorwurf in the sense of 'model' or 'template', I would say. We have very little context to clarify which of our answers is correct in this case. @Stephen: if the context is not clear, I think I would go back to the author for clarification.
Stephen Old (asker) Aug 30, 2017:
der lyrische Vorwurf Thanks for these suggestions. I will look at them in the morning now as I am flagging. Did I reply to you on Twitter, Helen? This job has taken over my life but it is great!
Björn Vrooman Aug 30, 2017:
Here's the German Duden, second entry:
"Vorlage (3a); Thema, Gegenstand künstlerischer Bearbeitung
Herkunft
mittelhochdeutsch vür-, vorwurf, Lehnübersetzung von lateinisch obiectum (Objekt), ursprünglich = das vor die Sinne Geworfene, das den Sinnen, dem Subjekt Gegenüberstehende
Gebrauch
selten

Beispiel
das Ereignis diente als Vorwurf für eine Novelle, zu seinem Roman"
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Vorwurf
Björn Vrooman Aug 30, 2017:
One example "Note: As the invited guest, I had the honor of writing the hokku. I tried to keep with the tradition of referencing the host (the idea of shared water being her generosity with her knowledge and research of haiku). I also wanted to set the stage, explaining our different geographies."
https://haikuproject.wordpress.com/links/shared-water-a-reng...

I think "set the stage" is pretty close. It is indeed fascinating stuff!

Best
Björn Vrooman Aug 30, 2017:
@Stephen I don't think that has anything to do with "Vorwurf" in a negative sense:
"It was traditional for the most honoured guest at the poetry-writing session to be invited to compose it, and he would be expected to offer praise to his host and/or deprecate himself (often symbolically), while superficially referring to current surroundings and season."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokku

The hokku is called the "starting verse."

"Vorwurf" is the "opening" here, I'd say.

Proposed translations

+1
14 hrs
Selected

opening verse/stanza // starting point

I believe that in this context, "Vorwurf" is used in the second sense of the word:
"Vorlage (3a); Thema, Gegenstand künstlerischer Bearbeitung
Herkunft
[...]
ursprünglich = das vor die Sinne Geworfene, das den Sinnen, dem Subjekt Gegenüberstehende
[...]
Beispiel
das Ereignis diente als Vorwurf für eine Novelle, zu seinem Roman"
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Vorwurf

You're talking about a "hokku," which is the "opening verse":
"the hokku served to begin a longer poem by establishing a season, often with a pair of seasonal images"
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/learn/glossary-terms/haiku-...

It's there to serve as the starting point for adding the other stanzas, Typically, it's the guest of hono(u)r (or the lead poet) who is asked to write (or recite) the hokku:
"It was traditional for the most honoured guest at the poetry-writing session to be invited to compose it, and he would be expected to offer praise to his host and/or deprecate himself (often symbolically), while superficially referring to current surroundings and season."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokku

"Note: As the invited guest, I had the honor of writing the hokku. I tried to keep with the tradition of referencing the host [...]. I also wanted to set the stage, explaining our different geographies."
https://haikuproject.wordpress.com/links/shared-water-a-reng...

"Its composition is considered an honour and would traditionally be reserved for the most practised poet present or offered as a mark of respect to a particularly worthy guest."
http://simplyhaiku.com/SHv2n1/renku/beginnings.html

There don't seem to be any negative connotations here:
"the hokku [...] will be the starting point [...] and should consequently be positive and forward-looking"
http://www.haikuspirit.org/renkuEN2.html

Cf
"The hokku is the head verse, the font from which the sequence springs. [...] The hokku is therefore the precursor to the later 'haiku'. Importantly, it is the only stanza in a renku sequence which may usefully be considered as 'like a haiku'."
http://simplyhaiku.com/SHv2n1/renku/beginnings.html

Interesting side note from Britannica:
"The hokku became known as the haiku late in the 19th century, when it was entirely divested of its original function of opening a sequence of verse, but today even the 17th-century hokku are usually called haiku."
https://www.britannica.com/art/Japanese-literature/Medieval-...

Cf
http://poetscollective.org/poetryforms/tag/van-gorder/page/5...

Considering that the hokku is the precursor to the haiku, I wouldn't use template, although Duden may suggest it; it's more like "source."

Your sentence reads: "Vorwurf des hokku."
This is a certain German grammar structure that you'd be better off translating into English by using something such as "called." The other word "lyrisch" only means "referring to poetry" here (not "lyric poetry").

Almost exactly the sentence you have, including "called" and "Tenor" as "set the tone":
"The first part of the poem, called hokku or 'starting verse,' frequently set the tone for the rest of the poem"

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Note added at 1 day18 hrs (2017-09-01 12:57:52 GMT) Post-grading
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Thanks for your kind words and glad to have helped!
Peer comment(s):

agree Herbmione Granger : It must be the stage-setting. Perhaps "lyrische" should be included in "lyrische Vorwurf des hokku," though.// Agree, it should probably be a straightforward description.
7 hrs
Thanks! Am open to suggestions; I thought a reference to verse/stanza is enough to indicate it's about poetry. I don't think there's a way to incorporate "lyric(al)" into the sentence.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much for this wonderfully comprehensive answer, which has been an education in itself."
2 mins

lyrical / poetic reproach

http://www.dict.cc/?s=Vorwurf

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Note added at 3 mins (2017-08-30 18:09:12 GMT)
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Or admonition. I prefer that, if I'm honest.



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Note added at 5 mins (2017-08-30 18:10:47 GMT)
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Here are two examples of someone using it:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eNBF8iLf9K0C&pg=PA28&lpg...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GwfplQ3OK8EC&pg=PA54&lpg...

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Note added at 6 mins (2017-08-30 18:12:19 GMT)
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Above: lyrical admonition.

Here: lyrical reproach: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EbUPfvR3PAIC&pg=PA189&lp...

This isn't a specific term.
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6 hrs

Lyric concept

Vorwurf ist hier wohl als 'concept' zu verstehen (out of which evolves the "narrative").

'Outline' or 'idea' are somewhat similar, but I am partial to 'concept'
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