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Evaluation "hors les murs" (prise de parole au Louvre)
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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

De manière connue en soi,

English translation:

In a manner which is per se known

Added to glossary by Bashiqa
Jan 9, 2021 16:36
3 yrs ago
36 viewers *
French term

De manière connue en soi,

French to English Law/Patents Physics electrostatic spray
Context:
De manière connue en soi, la base 40 comporte, par exemple, au moins une vanne configurée pour obturer ou ouvrir l’un des conduits de la base 40. Au moins une vanne est, par exemple, disposée sur la face de liaison.

Still editing long text and query the translator`s offering for this which is "In a manner known per se". Not sure whether this is appropriate for Patent language.

My own idea along the lines "In a conventional manner".

Any suggestions most welcome.
TIA Chris.
Proposed translations (English)
4 In a manner which is per se known
4 as widely documented
3 In an accepted or agreed manner
4 -2 As is absolutely known
2 As per standard practice
2 -1 As is self-evident, ...
References
in a manner known per se

Discussion

chris collister Jan 10, 2021:
@TechLaw Interesting - but not very. First of all, emotions don't come into it. Secondly, what exactly do you understand by the expression "per se"? Does it add any additional meaning? I agree that accuracy is important: in a translation of one of my own patents, the translator interpreted the crystal in an oscillator as a "liquid crystal", which of course was a gross error. I'm sure we have all read verbatim translations that slavishly follow the source text word for word, and it's not a pretty sight. If you believe that the translation I suggested ("as is generally known") significantly alters the meaning I would like to understand how, though I don't think it's worth getting bogged down on this issue.
TechLawDC Jan 10, 2021:
In reply to Mr. Collister below: In reply to Mr. Collister below: Terms of art shouldn't be rewritten to suit one's emotions.
If I were the translation manager of the client and I investigated and found out that you knew that the term of art was "as is known per se" or "as is per se known" and you substituted "as is generally known", I would dock you real money. This would underscore the point that the translator is not supposed to edit terms of art, any more than he/she is permitted to rewrite idioms.
Bashiqa (asker) Jan 10, 2021:
@ CC Agree entirely about waste of ink in repeating everything but, we are but mortal souls doing what we are asked to do. This is in fact an editing job so will leave as is.
chris collister Jan 9, 2021:
I have written several patents, striving always to use plain, "ordinary" English. Invariably my text has been transformed by the patent lawyer/agent into patentese, a ghastly and arcane subset of the English language that uses four words where one will do, and comprehensible mainly to other patent lawyers. Personally (and others may disagree), I would translate "de manière connu en soi" simply "as is generally known", implying also that it is "known to those skilled in the art".
Saeed Najmi Jan 9, 2021:
Hi, it seems that the phrase the translator is suggesting is just fine. I've found similar phrases with ''per se'' in a legal dictionary:
''libel per se'' and '' ''negligence per se''
https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?typed=in a manner kn...

Proposed translations

4 hrs
Selected

In a manner which is per se known

Alternative: By means which are per se known.
Explanation: This is standard patent language in the U.S. and U.K.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2021-01-09 21:08:15 GMT)
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Ref (one among many hundreds readily found):
US Patent Application for Method for Knitting Manufactured Articles ...patents.justia.com › patent
3 , the reduction of the active needles is obtained by causing, in a manner which is per se known, for example as provided in WO-02/070799 (see FIGS. 5 and 6 ) ...
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you for the confirmation"
13 mins

as widely documented

a suggestion
Peer comment(s):
neutral Thomas Miles : How would it be widely documented if this is a patent presenting an innovation and this very passage describes a specific configuration of components?
18 mins
The innovation is based on a widely documented fact concerning b 40.
neutral Tony M : I think the more usually found expression is something like "widely known in the literature" — but I'm not quite sure that's really the meaning we can stretch it to here.
1 hr
agree chris collister : That's the drift, but what's wrong with "known"?
5 hrs
Thank you.
disagree Francois Boye : It's not a question of being WIDELY known.
1 day 7 hrs
Widely documented if you read correctly. Not the same thing.
Something went wrong...
-2
37 mins

As is absolutely known

en soi veut dire absolument, c.a.d, sans besoin d'expérience humaine

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2021-01-09 19:59:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

EN SOI

EN SOIPHILOS. Nature propre et véritable d'une réalité qui existe absolument, indépendamment de la connaissance que nous en avons.
− Spécialement
♦ [Chez les scolastiques] Ce qui caractérise la substance dont la qualité est d'exister en elle-même. Pour les philosophes antérieurs à Kant, principalement chez les scolastiques, l'être en soi, c'est la substance (en latin « ens in se » ou « ens per se ») (Mantoy1971).
♦ [Chez Kant] Ce qui existe absolument, indépendamment de la pensée qui l'appréhende. Synon. noumène*; anton. pour nous*, phénomène*.L'expérience cherchait avec la raison philosophique l'en soi des choses (Proudhonds Lar. 19e-Lar. Lang. fr.).
♦ [Chez Sartre et les existentialistes] Réalité de l'être qui est, mais demeure opaque aux autres et à lui-même. Anton. pour soi.Il est impossible de dire de l'en-soi qu'il est soi. Il est, tout simplement (Sartre, Être et Néant,1943, p. 148).
Prononc. : [ɑ ̃swa]. Étymol. et Hist. Av. 1865 (Proudhon ds Lar. 19e, supra). Subst. masc. composé de en* et de soi* prob. calque de la loc. all. an sich, désignant ce qu'est une chose indépendamment de la connaissance humaine telle qu'elle est constituée par les sensations et la raison (cf. Kant, Kritik der reinen Vernunft, B. 381 ds J. Ritter, Hist. Wörterb. der Philos.). Le subst. correspondant all. est das Ansichsein.

Source: LE Dictionnaire TLFI
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : Yes, the idea is "as an absolute" — sadly, though, we can't really use 'absolutely' in this way in normal EN usage.
1 hr
disagree Drmanu49 : Agree with Tony.
1 day 18 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
23 hrs

As is self-evident, ...

This is a rather daring proposal, but when you rearrange the elements, turn one into 'Anglo-Saxon' and replace another with a synonym, you end up with this!

Disagrees welcome.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : 'Fraid not, Thomas, 'cos in patent language, this completely changes the sense. The key point here is "already known prior art, not part of the actual claims herein" — which is a very long way from being self evident"
9 mins
Fair enough.
Something went wrong...
1 day 7 hrs

As per standard practice

Hello

I don't do patents as I would hate "patentese" as much as I hate "legalese" but this is how I would have translated it.
Note from asker:
In any other type of text I would agree. However, this is a patent and answer as given by TechLawDC is correct in this context.
Something went wrong...
2 days 3 hrs

In an accepted or agreed manner

The information explains:
'Base 40 includes at least one configured valve in order to block one of the pipes or ducts in the same base. At least one valve is arranged on its connecting side or face.'
Example sentence:

'La base 40 comporte au moins une vanne configurée pour obturer l'un des conduits de la même base. Au moins une vanne est disposée sur le côté ou la face de liaison.'

Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

in a manner known per se

Several standard phrases seem to be used in real existing patents, including "in a manner known per se" which is the most frequently found:

in a manner known per se
in a per se known manner
in known manner
known per se

See KudoZ entry dated 24 Jul 2003:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-patents/486...

+Multiple examples on patents.google.com:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1213183B1 (French)
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1213183B1/en (English)

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0803951A1/fr (French)
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0803951A1/en (English)
Claim [0023]

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1921519B1/fr
Claim [0022]

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0267192A1/en (English only)
Note from asker:
Thank you, even after many patents there are always new things/phrases to learn.
Very impressive CV.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree philgoddard : The asker could have Googled this.
44 mins
neutral Francois Boye : see 'En soi' in Le Dictionnaire TLFI
2 hrs
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