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May 17, 2021 02:42
2 yrs ago
174 viewers *
English term

surname vs last name

English Art/Literary Linguistics a meaning
A very good morning/afternoon/evening to you! ,,, delete as appropriate please :)

Could you please explain the nuances?

Context, from Mary Croft's book:
All contracts we signed have the strawman name, not ours, on them. Have you ever noticed that your driver’s licence, bank statement, and any bill that you receive is in all capital letters? Even the now-’corrected’ Cdn. Driver’s Licences lists ‘last name’ first which still makes it a corporate name because sovereigns don’t have last names, they have given names and surnames. How is it that the feds can take our houses, property, bank accounts, children, cars, etc.? Because we don’t own them.

TIA and best regards!
Responses
4 +3 surname and last name are synonymous [However...]
5 +1 see ref
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (2): Lara Barnett, mike23

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Discussion

Jacek Rogala (X) May 21, 2021:
Yes, I choose "your" dictionary definition:
the presentation of stories in a way that is intended to provoke public.
Perhaps, I should name it Sherlockholmesism instead.
A "sensational" has been said with the light irony, next time to be quoted for your convenience.
Daryo May 20, 2021:
So it was some kind of experiment to see how "natives" in the language of the ST and how translators "native" in the target language would see the same question?

OTOH I can't see why a highly unexpected "coincidence" would be "sensational"

sensationalism
/sɛnˈseɪʃ(ə)n(ə)lɪz(ə)m/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
(especially in journalism) the presentation of stories in a way that is intended to provoke public interest or excitement, at the expense of accuracy.

As far as I can see it it very accurate that both questions are in fact the same one.
Jacek Rogala (X) May 18, 2021:
@Daryo Now I noticed your sensational entry :).
The link from there was deliberately directed to this one en/en thread so that Polish users can comfortably track the perfectly being done help from the native translators and also L2 professionals here.

The question in EN/PL pair refers to Polish language and the formal grounds in Poland.
Jacek Rogala (X) May 18, 2021:
Dear All! Thank you very much!
I am lucky to be here and benefit from every single entry from you!
Cheers!
Daryo May 18, 2021:
Interesting coincidence ...
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english-to-polish/names-personal-...

EXACTLY THE SAME quote given as "context" for exactly the same question (only formulated as "last name vs surname" instead of "surname vs last name"), by another translator ...

??
Jacek Rogala (X) May 17, 2021:
@John Druce Thank you for your interesting contribution here!
John Druce May 17, 2021:
There is no difference The context here makes things a little tricky. The writer of the source text is trying to imply there is a distinction between "surname" and "last name" as a technicality to invalidate statute law, but there there isn't really a difference. As other commenters have noted, they mean the same but are favoured more in UK/US English.

This is related to the "freeman on the land" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land) and "sovereign citizen" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement) movements, based on misguided intepretations and "technicalities" of the law. The main idea is that your physical body is distinct from a legal placeholder/strawman (the "name" on your birth certificate). Some even refer to their physical person as "John of the Family Smith" instead of "John Smith" to try to demonstrate a distinction from the legal entity.

They then argue, for example, that the government demands taxes from the strawman/legal placeholder, but as you as a physical person didn't enter into any "contract" with the government, you don't have to pay the debts (tax) claimed against the strawman.

These arguments generally result in being found in contempt of court.
Jacek Rogala (X) May 17, 2021:
What is not clear LARA BARNETT and PHILGODDARD? The context is from Mary Croft's book. Ms Croft is American lady.
In this context appear two elements, namely one word - a "surname" and a term - "last name".
I am simply asking for your kind Anglosaxon help to explain the difference between "surname" and "last name"; furthermore, the title of my question is "surname vs last name", eventually, below the title, quite visible is my question, i.e. please explain.
Thank you!
Jacek Rogala (X) May 17, 2021:
... and Jean-Paul Belmondo too - just to mention France as our representative here :).
Hi, BdiL!
I'm very impressed over your entry here!
And yes, I'm familiar with Hungarian rules in the context, have many colleagues, even friends, and eventually the TV series - A Tenkes kapitánya - The Captain Tenkes, naturally - confirm the custom.
As Bruno mentioned here, the Ibero-American examples can get a little crazy, take the legendary Pele ... Edson Arantes do Nascimento :).
Cheers!
BdiL May 17, 2021:
I hoped for a better answer, but the only recorded one mixes things up instead of shedding light. I had some doubt myself. I'll go by philgoddard's note that surname and last name are the same thing. In fact surnames (family names) are mostly written in the last place ("last name"), with a few languages exceptions. Notably, in my knowledge, in Mao Ce Dong (ex Mao Tse Tung) "Mao" represents the family name, because so goes the Chinese language: the "Last name" goes in first place. BTW, I believe "last name" is the prevailing US usage, whereas UK usage prefers surname. The same order as Chinese applies to Hungarian: director Miklos (=Michael) Jancso is actually JANCSO Miklos in his native country (and language). I know no such habit in other European countries, aside from the buraucratic habit in my native Italy to list full names in the surnames' order, thus: Rossi Maria, Rossi Mario, Rossi Michele, Rosso Medardo. As we are taught in school that we are Primo LEVi, NOT LEVI Primo, things tangle up for such full names as Michele LUCIANO, where Luciano is also a given name. Sometimes in lists they separate by a comma thus: LUCIANO, Michele; LUCIANO, Zaira etc. Maurizio
Jacek Rogala (X) May 17, 2021:
Hi, Bruno!
You disappeared, so please accept my thanks to you here!
Cheers!

Responses

+3
7 hrs
Selected

surname and last name are synonymous [However...]

Firstly, the two terms mean the same thing.

However, forms in English often use the term "Last Name"rather than "Surname" these days. For one thing it is a lot clearer for L2 English speakers (as well as for tourists, immigrants and migrants) who have to fill in forms of various types

Secondly, in my childhood, a long time ago now, any interactions, such as when a receptionist greeted you in an office or hotel or elsewhere they would ask for your name as "Christian Name" and "Surname". This was in the days when the large majority of people in English-speaking countries were Chrisitian but these days it would be considered discriminatory in a pluralist society.

I noticed when I emigrated to Canada that "Last Name" (and in Quebec, "Family name"was used far more frequently than "surname") and also think it was far more common in the USA. I think the practice is widespread now

I think the practice is widespread now that people ask for "First Name". And "Last Name" simply matches that context as a collocation better

I also note any forms I need to fill in these days usually use "First Name" [middle name] and "Last Name" as well. It is a lot clearer for people, especially L2 English people or those who have multiple names in their culture.

Sometimes, but more rarely, "last name/surname may be written or asked as "family name" but again, this may be unclear for in some cultires.

As for the position of these words on forms or elsewhere? Usually it's "First", (middle, if asked) and "Last" but I have seen the last name in first position as well on forms and even made the mistake of filling in the wrong name as I am so used to putting first name in that position!

As synonyms they can be bandied about in the same context

Here is an explanation of "strawman name" which is really the odd one out here
https://www.upcounsel.com/what-is-a-straw-man-in-legal-terms


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Note added at 7 hrs (2021-05-17 10:32:04 GMT)
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typos: this may be unclear for in some cultires.> may be unclear in some cultures.

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Note added at 9 hrs (2021-05-17 12:30:58 GMT)
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Glad to help. Sorry, I thought I had deleted the repetition. It wasn't intentional!

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Note added at 1 day 11 hrs (2021-05-18 13:59:16 GMT) Post-grading
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"Boys need repetitions" LOL

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Note added at 65 days (2021-07-21 08:25:03 GMT) Post-grading
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Glad to have helped
Note from asker:
Excellent lesson, I'm stunned, then wiser thanks to you. You make my day, Yvonne! Thanks a lot!
Everything is perfect. Boys need repetitions, otherwise they just look sort of like they are convinced, but they are not :).
Hello, Ivonne! <b>Hope, you are doing fine!</b> <i>I am taking the liberty of writing here before I will send the support request since some tagged texts are not being displayed the html tagged versions.</i> <u>Thank you and best regards, Yvonne!</u>
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : Yes. Surname is less common here in the US.
3 hrs
Thanks. As I said, it's got far less common here now as well
agree Tina Vonhof (X) : But the whole concept of first name-last name is ethnocentric. There are many cultures that have completely different naming conventions or no conventions at all.
4 hrs
Thanks. Of course, but Asker is simply asking here about meaning of 2 English terms (as the phrasing in source text is confusing)
agree Chiara U.
5 hrs
Many thanks:-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much!"
+1
5 mins

see ref

In the English-speaking world, a surname is commonly referred to as a last name because it is usually placed at the end of a person's full name, after any given names. In many parts of Asia and in some parts of Europe and Africa, the family name is placed before a person's given name.

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Note added at 5 mins (2021-05-17 02:47:33 GMT)
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Connection between Surname and Last Name: The surname of a person is his family name, and is shared by all members of the family, dead or alive. Last name is the name that comes at the end of the name.

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Note added at 6 mins (2021-05-17 02:48:18 GMT)
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have to take the cultural aspaect into consideration

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Note added at 6 mins (2021-05-17 02:48:33 GMT)
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aspect

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Note added at 8 mins (2021-05-17 02:50:15 GMT)
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n the English-speaking world, a surname is commonly referred to as a last name because it is usually placed at the end of a person's full name, after any given names. In many parts of Asia and in some parts of Europe and Africa, the family name is placed before a person's given name.

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Note added at 9 mins (2021-05-17 02:51:47 GMT)
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so repeating for emphasis
Note from asker:
:) I know, I know, for emphasis! Thank you very much indeed, David!
Peer comment(s):
agree Bruno Pavesi : Dang, beat me to it! Hahaha. But yeah, in Portuguese and Spanish surnames can get a little crazy, but for the usage in English this is right on the money.
3 mins
thanks Bruno
neutral philgoddard : I'm sorry if I'm being slow, but I can't make head or tail of the context, so I don't follow your answer either. Surely surname and last name are the same thing.
1 hr
you're right Phil and didn't explain it clearly enough
neutral Lara Barnett : I get follow your drift, but as with Phil above, I can't see how some of your information refers to the original question, which is not very clear anyway.
7 hrs
agree Lara
Something went wrong...
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