Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

se donnait la comédie

English translation:

was a delusional prima donna

Added to glossary by Barbara Cochran, MFA
Aug 8, 2021 13:51
2 yrs ago
55 viewers *
French term

se donnait la comédie

French to English Art/Literary History From An Art History Book
Contexte:

Goering, homme de décision, fit connaître le jour suivant les conséquences pratiques à tirer de ses directives : les objets d’art que le Führer désire acquérir et ceux que lui-même a choisis avec l’intention de les acheter pour sa collection, devront être chargés immédiatement dans deux wagons de chemin de fer accrochés à son train spécial pour le retour à Berlin11.
Le sort en était donc jeté – les œuvres d’art confisquées étaient purement et simplement enlevées – quel que fût le protocole impérial avec lequel le Reichsmarschall les attachait à son char.
J’ai souvent pensé que Goering se donnait la comédie et que tout ce processus avait été rêvé avant d’être réalisé. Il jouissait de se voir traînant après lui les trophées d’une victoire.

Merci Beaucoup,

Barbara
Change log

Aug 10, 2021 01:01: Barbara Cochran, MFA Created KOG entry

Discussion

Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 9, 2021:
In Love With Himself/Full Of Himself I think that he was indeed in love with himself, and also full of himself.
Johannes Gleim Aug 9, 2021:
@ Barbara I think, he was self-flattering, self-loving or self-promoting

Added these trms to my answer subsequently.
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 9, 2021:
I just looked for a synonym of "se donner la coméedie", and the one that was given was for "donner la comédie" was "se donner en spectacle" Could it be that the author was actually just thinking of the latter term when she wrote "SE donnait la comédie"?
Helen Shiner Aug 9, 2021:
@ph-b I think I’ve made my point more than once, which refers to the term aside from the wider historical context. I don’t recognise the hair you want to split, so I will leave it here. The Asker doubtless already knows what she will choose.
ph-b (X) Aug 9, 2021:
Helen, "... though the history of this episode tells us quite definitely that these top Nazis were seeking to demonstrate to anyone who might be watching..." I agree with you on this point of history, of course. But is it what this particular text is telling us? Is the author really telling us this (hi)story here? " I don't thinks so. I get the impression the author is talking not about history, but about the way he or she thought G's mind worked (which is part of history, obviously); if they chose to write "Goering se donnait la comédie", did they really mean G was "seeking to demonstrate to anyone" [your words]? Now if you tell me that "self-dramatising" means just that, then that's fine with me.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Aug 9, 2021:
Suggested difference betw; "donner la C"/"se...C" I have added a reference post but on returning here, see that ph-b has also pointed to CNRTL. It is an extremely good quality source for a number of expressions. Even for modern texts, you are very often able to get to the roots of meaning and find a way through to a helpful meaning. Comments to the post welcome. Hope it helps.
Samuël Buysschaert Aug 9, 2021:
Just a thought Maybe sthg with self-adulatory, after all Goering was driven by it, the constant necessity to promote his accomplishments, he was known to be a vain person, and also mocked for his massive ego. Imo, it also conveys the idea with the following sentence "Il jouissait de se voir", a form of excessive expression for himself.
Helen Shiner Aug 9, 2021:
@pb-h What you describe is, in fact, self-dramatising. The point being to insert oneself into an imagined story. There may or may not be an audience, though the history of this episode tells us quite definitely that these top Nazis were seeking to demonstrate to anyone who might be watching their imperial-like qualities and to showcase the accoutrements they considered attached to the role in all that they did; Goering the worst of the lot in terms of looting for personal effect.
ormiston Aug 9, 2021:
In light of 'enacting for himself', why not simply 'playing a role'?
ph-b (X) Aug 9, 2021:
se donner la comédie "Comédie : B.− Au fig., fam. et souvent péj.
Au sing. (avec l'art. déf.), vieilli. Se donner la comédie de qqc. Se livrer au jeu de quelque chose. Donnez-vous la comédie, quelque jour, de parler de vous-même à des gens de simple connaissance (Balzac, Le Lys dans la vallée,1836, p. 162).
" (https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/comédie) I get the impression that by taking stolen works of art to Germany in this manner, G was finally achieving something he had been dreaming of and that he was sort of "enacting for himself" (se) a scene he had (often?) rehearsed in his mind - cf. tout ce processus avait été rêvé avant d’être réalisé, not to mention il jouissait de se voir… ! I don't think that any audience - apart from himself - is meant here and the translation should reflect this.
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 9, 2021:
I think that, more than anything else, one should bear in mind that the Nazis who were at the highest levels of their hierarchical dung heap were beset by various forms of megalomaniacal psychopathology.
Daryo Aug 9, 2021:
some variation on "was creating his own show" / "was creating a show for his own enjoyment" ?

"putting on a show for his own enjoyment"?

That could take into the equation the reflexive pronoun, i.e. Göring being his own audience.
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 9, 2021:
A Total Prima Donna That is an expression that often describes singers and actors. Self-important and big egos, somewhere along the lines of what Robin entered (although Mr. G was on an out-and-out ego trip!). Delusions of grandeur, definitely!
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 8, 2021:
Isn't This Enough To Prove That He Did? ". . . le protocole impérial avec lequel le Reichsmarschall les attachait à son char . . .

Like a lot of actors do.
David Hollywood Aug 8, 2021:
ph-b will keep us right :)
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 8, 2021:
Suffered From Delusions Of Grandeur . . . since the author felt that achieving and forever accumulating personal glory was something G must have fantasized about (see my entered text), based on his idiosyncratic attitudes and behaviors.

https://mobile-dictionary.reverso.net/en/english-definition/...
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 8, 2021:
That's interesting, because G's full-of-himself attitude is really nothing, other than the rest of the Nazi low-lifes, that normal people would want to be forced to look at. The author certainly didn't want to be.
ph-b (X) Aug 8, 2021:
se Unless I'm mistaken, the answers so far forget about the reflexive pronoun and only translate donner la comédie. The use of se indicates that the infamous G. was his own audience, as it were.

Proposed translations

12 hrs
Selected

was putting on a show for his own enjoyment

or

"was creating his own show"

but that is ambiguous - "his" could be interpreted as "he" being the lead actor OR as "he" being the one commissioning the show OR as "he" being the intended audience for the show.
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3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+5
39 mins

self-dramatising

It was exactly the sort of high-risk, self-dramatising situation that the writer revelled in, even if it embarrassed his estranged wife Martha Gellhorn, who took her job as a war reporter far more seriously.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190812-day-hemingway-liberated...

Goering was absolutely about self-dramatising for effect.



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Note added at 41 mins (2021-08-08 14:33:24 GMT)
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Though obviously you’ll want the US spelling :-)

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Note added at 51 mins (2021-08-08 14:42:52 GMT)
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http://www.historytoday.com/archive/heinrich-himmler-reichsf...
Peer comment(s):

agree David Hollywood : "self-dramatising" is nice and fits the bill
3 mins
Thank you, David; no question he was delusional, too ;-)
agree Emmanuella : https://www.google.com/search?q=goring self dramatising&oq=g...
18 mins
Thanks, Emmanuella. Yes. All of the key Nazis did so.
neutral ph-b (X) : Isn't this se mettre en scène (which isn't the same as se donner la comédie)?
3 hrs
Possibly. This whole text reads to me as if it has been translated from German into French and must now be translated again into EN. This episode is absolutely part of Goering’s self-dramatisation, so I find the FR rather weak/ Precisely your description.
agree writeaway
6 hrs
Thanks, writeaway.
agree Barbara Carrara
17 hrs
Thanks, Barbara
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : I think that given the tone of the French, this sounds a little too contemporary for the register. I know, I'm nitpicking! ;-)
19 hrs
The text is a contemporary art history paper/book. This is a term used very much in current discussions of these Nazi leaders - my own area of research actually.
agree Rachel Fell
1 day 1 hr
Thanks, Rachel!
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1 hr

was a showoff

suggestion
Peer comment(s):

neutral ph-b (X) : se?
3 hrs
a self-mocking showoff?
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1 hr

had been acting the clown

Perchance no need for a plethora of discussion entries when Hermann Göring, like failed chicken farmer: Heinrich Himmler, had been figures of tragi-comedy. No such label can be attached or 'tethered' to Adolf Eichmann who, as everyone knows, had attended the same school in Linz as Adolf H. and Ludwig Wittgenstein.
Example sentence:

What's So Funny About Hermann Goering? Or, Why I'm Afraid of (Political) Clowns

Peer comment(s):

neutral ph-b (X) : se?
3 hrs
se comporter comme un fou: act or behave like a nincompoop. The verb 'acts' like a reflexive https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/comportement/... DEU: sich wichtigtuerisch verhalten > swagger
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1 hr

liked to play to the gallery

another option -
he was a showman
he fancied himself as an actor
he had delusions of grandeur
Peer comment(s):

neutral ph-b (X) : Yes, but doesn't the text say that G. himself was the gallery, as it were (se donner la comédie)?
2 hrs
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17 mins

was delusional

:)

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Note added at 19 mins (2021-08-08 14:11:01 GMT)
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characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder

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Note added at 21 mins (2021-08-08 14:13:33 GMT)
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my first thought was "showing off" and indeed would be in line with Göring's slippery character traits

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Note added at 22 mins (2021-08-08 14:14:32 GMT)
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"playacting" as an alternative

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Note added at 25 mins (2021-08-08 14:16:51 GMT)
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looking forward to native speaker reactions

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Note added at 27 mins (2021-08-08 14:19:22 GMT)
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"putting on a show"

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Note added at 28 mins (2021-08-08 14:20:04 GMT)
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deleted my first post and thanks for your agree on that Conner

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Note added at 28 mins (2021-08-08 14:20:34 GMT)
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Conor

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Note added at 30 mins (2021-08-08 14:22:08 GMT)
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really just means "showing off"

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Note added at 33 mins (2021-08-08 14:25:11 GMT)
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Göring was indeed delusional but should have left my first post in as this is more a case of showing off or playacting

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Note added at 36 mins (2021-08-08 14:28:23 GMT)
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anyway the main thing is to get the right idea so....

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Note added at 1 hr (2021-08-08 15:50:38 GMT)
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sorry I deleted my initial answer

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Note added at 1 hr (2021-08-08 15:51:21 GMT)
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mais tant pis
Peer comment(s):

neutral ph-b (X) : se?
4 hrs
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Whether this is true or not, I think that it is a conclusion that might be drawn but is not an accurate rendering. The FR describes a "symptom" and that is the element to be focused on here.
20 hrs
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+4
28 mins

was putting on a performance

The more common construction is "se donner à la" something, I think, but I presume that this means the same thing.

la comédie : acting

un comédien : an actor, more often a theatre actor if I'm not mistaken


When someone is creating a bit of a scene or a bit of a fuss in France, you will often here, "Arrête ta comédie !".

"Arrête ton cinéma !" is similar.


I think there is a better way of putting this but it's not quite coming to me.

Maybe

creating a bit of a scene

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Note added at 31 mins (2021-08-08 14:23:11 GMT)
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trying to get attention


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Note added at 3 hrs (2021-08-08 16:57:56 GMT)
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not here, but HEAR, oops, apologies

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Note added at 3 hrs (2021-08-08 17:09:27 GMT)
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putting on a show

showboating: an annoying form of behaviour, especially in sport, that is intended to attract attention or admiration
Peer comment(s):

agree philgoddard
2 hrs
Thanks Phil!
neutral ph-b (X) : se?/There's no such expression as se donner la comédie (as opposed to donner la comédie), i.e. it is relevant./ERR.: There is, actually, but see my 2nd post in the discussion on the relevance of se.
4 hrs
Has no relevance, it's just part of the expression. / Read the first line of my explanation. / To be honest, I have lost interest in this question, for obvious reasons, and also I'm in the middle of a massive project that I'm also project-managing.
agree Michele Fauble : putting on an act
5 hrs
Thanks Michele!
agree Nicole Acher
9 hrs
Thanks Nicole!
agree Julie Barber : yes, I would see it as role playing a part that he has already thought out
19 hrs
Thanks very much Julie!
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+2
3 hrs

Was putting on an act

You have plenty suggestions but here's mine. I think this would flow well into the rest of you sentence
Peer comment(s):

agree Andrew Bramhall
8 mins
neutral ph-b (X) : se?
1 hr
agree Julie Barber : I would see it as role playing a part that he has already thought out
16 hrs
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6 hrs

was admiring himself

What about this reflexive construction: 'I have often thought that Goering was admiring himself' or similar?
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+1
8 hrs

was on (something of) an ego trip

An option that brings together an element of delusion coupled with self-glorification (ph-b's 'se').
Peer comment(s):

neutral Daryo : Being on an "ego trip" is definitely true, but in this text it's not presented that way.
4 hrs
agree ph-b (X) : Not for me to comment on this as a translation (register?), but I think that's the idea I tried to explain in my discussion posts.
7 hrs
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Reference comments

29 mins
Reference:

Donner la comédie

Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Daryo : that would then be "making a fool of himself", esp given: Synonymes "se donner en spectacle"
12 hrs
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20 hrs
Reference:

donner la comédie; se donner la comédie

DONNER LA COMEDIE

https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/donner_la_comédie#:~:text=Loc...

donner la comédie Prononciation ? (se conjugue → voir la conjugaison de donner)

(Figuré) Se faire remarquer par des manières extravagantes et ridicules.
Partout où il va, il donne la comédie.


SE DONNER LA COMEDIE DE QQCHS

https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/comédie

"B.− Au fig., fam. et souvent péj.
1. Au sing. (avec l'art. déf.), vieilli. Se donner la comédie de qqc. Se livrer au jeu de quelque chose. Donnez-vous la comédie, quelque jour, de parler de vous-même à des gens de simple connaissance (Balzac, Le Lys dans la vallée,1836, p. 162).
a) Jouer la comédie. Simuler par une mise en scène des sentiments que l'on n'éprouve pas :
5. Il y a la comédie qu'on joue pour tromper les hommes. Celle-là ne m'intéresse pas. Il y a celle qu'on joue par une sorte d'automatisme, parce que l'habitude est prise − qu'il s'agisse des passions ou de simple politesse, celle-là est plus grave, c'est le jeu du monde, autant dire du démon. Je ne puis l'accepter. Green, Journal,1950-54, p. 170.
− [Constructions]
♦ Absol. Elle sentait tout à fait qu'il lui jouait la comédie, qu'il n'y avait pas en lui la moindre sincérité (Daniel-Rops, Mort, où est ta victoire?1934, p. 459).
♦ [Suivi d'un compl. de nom] Elle joua la comédie du cœur brisé, et prit des airs dédaigneux, blasés (A. Daudet, Les Femmes d'artistes,1874, p. 184).[Suivi d'un inf.] Rare. Les choses se font toutes seules. Les hommes jouent la comédie de les accomplir (Valéry, Tel quel II,1943, p. 219).
b) [Chez les enfants et certains adultes à la conduite puérile] Caprice, enfantillage le plus souvent destiné à donner le change. S'il te plaît pas de comédie (Aymé, Les Quatre vérités,1954, p. 197)."

"Prononc. et Orth. : [kɔmedi]. Fait partie des mots en com- ne doublant pas l'm devant voyelle, qui sont une minorité. Ds Ac. 1694-1932. Étymol. et Hist. 1. a) 1370-72 « toute pièce de théâtre à quelque genre qu'elle appartienne » (Oresme, Ethique, IV, 25 ds DG); b) 1661 « la représentation de la pièce » (Molière, Facheux, I, 1); fig. 1666 donner la comédie « se donner en spectacle » (Molière, Misanthrope, I, 1); c) 1668 « lieu où se joue la pièce de théâtre » portier de comédie « celui qui se fait payer pour ouvrir la porte » (Racine, Plaideurs, I, 1); 2. a) 1552 « pièce de théâtre ayant pour but de divertir » (p. oppos. à tragédie) (Jodelle, Eugène, prol.); b) 1663 « ensemble d'actions qui provoquent le rire » (Molière, Critique de l'Ecole des Femmes, 6). Empr. au lat. comoedia (gr. κ ω μ ω δ ι ́ α) « pièce de théâtre, comédie (genre et pièce) ». Fréq. abs. littér. : 3 092. Fréq. rel. littér. : xixes. : a) 4 898, b) 5 112; xxes. : a) 3 371, b) 4 245. Bbg. Cuénot (C.). Z. rom. Philol. 1938, t. 58, pp. 610-614. − Gottsch. Redens. 1930, pp. 345-346. − Koch (P.). On Marivaux's expression se donner la comédie. Rom. R. 1965, t. 56, pp. 22-29. − Sain. Lang. par. 1920, p. 395. − Voltz (P.). La Comédie. Paris, 1964. − Winkler (E.). Zur Geschichte des Begriffs Comédie in Frankreich. Heidelberg, 1937.


RESUME

"Donner la comédie" = se faire remarquer par des manières extravagantes et ridicules.

"Se donner la comédie" = se donner en spectacle; se livrer au jeu de quelque chose

There is a difference between the two expressions. I suggest:
- "donner la comédie" describes the nature of the behaviour employed
- "se donner la comédie" describes the fact of employing such behaviour, adopting such an attidude
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