Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
se donnait la comédie
English translation:
was a delusional prima donna
Added to glossary by
Barbara Cochran, MFA
Aug 8, 2021 13:51
2 yrs ago
55 viewers *
French term
se donnait la comédie
French to English
Art/Literary
History
From An Art History Book
Contexte:
Goering, homme de décision, fit connaître le jour suivant les conséquences pratiques à tirer de ses directives : les objets d’art que le Führer désire acquérir et ceux que lui-même a choisis avec l’intention de les acheter pour sa collection, devront être chargés immédiatement dans deux wagons de chemin de fer accrochés à son train spécial pour le retour à Berlin11.
Le sort en était donc jeté – les œuvres d’art confisquées étaient purement et simplement enlevées – quel que fût le protocole impérial avec lequel le Reichsmarschall les attachait à son char.
J’ai souvent pensé que Goering se donnait la comédie et que tout ce processus avait été rêvé avant d’être réalisé. Il jouissait de se voir traînant après lui les trophées d’une victoire.
Merci Beaucoup,
Barbara
Goering, homme de décision, fit connaître le jour suivant les conséquences pratiques à tirer de ses directives : les objets d’art que le Führer désire acquérir et ceux que lui-même a choisis avec l’intention de les acheter pour sa collection, devront être chargés immédiatement dans deux wagons de chemin de fer accrochés à son train spécial pour le retour à Berlin11.
Le sort en était donc jeté – les œuvres d’art confisquées étaient purement et simplement enlevées – quel que fût le protocole impérial avec lequel le Reichsmarschall les attachait à son char.
J’ai souvent pensé que Goering se donnait la comédie et que tout ce processus avait été rêvé avant d’être réalisé. Il jouissait de se voir traînant après lui les trophées d’une victoire.
Merci Beaucoup,
Barbara
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Aug 10, 2021 01:01: Barbara Cochran, MFA Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
12 hrs
Selected
was putting on a show for his own enjoyment
or
"was creating his own show"
but that is ambiguous - "his" could be interpreted as "he" being the lead actor OR as "he" being the one commissioning the show OR as "he" being the intended audience for the show.
"was creating his own show"
but that is ambiguous - "his" could be interpreted as "he" being the lead actor OR as "he" being the one commissioning the show OR as "he" being the intended audience for the show.
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+5
39 mins
self-dramatising
It was exactly the sort of high-risk, self-dramatising situation that the writer revelled in, even if it embarrassed his estranged wife Martha Gellhorn, who took her job as a war reporter far more seriously.
https://www.france24.com/en/20190812-day-hemingway-liberated...
Goering was absolutely about self-dramatising for effect.
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Note added at 41 mins (2021-08-08 14:33:24 GMT)
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Though obviously you’ll want the US spelling :-)
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Note added at 51 mins (2021-08-08 14:42:52 GMT)
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http://www.historytoday.com/archive/heinrich-himmler-reichsf...
https://www.france24.com/en/20190812-day-hemingway-liberated...
Goering was absolutely about self-dramatising for effect.
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Note added at 41 mins (2021-08-08 14:33:24 GMT)
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Though obviously you’ll want the US spelling :-)
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Note added at 51 mins (2021-08-08 14:42:52 GMT)
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http://www.historytoday.com/archive/heinrich-himmler-reichsf...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
David Hollywood
: "self-dramatising" is nice and fits the bill
3 mins
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Thank you, David; no question he was delusional, too ;-)
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agree |
Emmanuella
: https://www.google.com/search?q=goring self dramatising&oq=g...
18 mins
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Thanks, Emmanuella. Yes. All of the key Nazis did so.
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neutral |
ph-b (X)
: Isn't this se mettre en scène (which isn't the same as se donner la comédie)?
3 hrs
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Possibly. This whole text reads to me as if it has been translated from German into French and must now be translated again into EN. This episode is absolutely part of Goering’s self-dramatisation, so I find the FR rather weak/ Precisely your description.
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agree |
writeaway
6 hrs
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Thanks, writeaway.
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agree |
Barbara Carrara
17 hrs
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Thanks, Barbara
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neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: I think that given the tone of the French, this sounds a little too contemporary for the register. I know, I'm nitpicking! ;-)
19 hrs
|
The text is a contemporary art history paper/book. This is a term used very much in current discussions of these Nazi leaders - my own area of research actually.
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agree |
Rachel Fell
1 day 1 hr
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Thanks, Rachel!
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1 hr
was a showoff
suggestion
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
ph-b (X)
: se?
3 hrs
|
a self-mocking showoff?
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1 hr
had been acting the clown
Perchance no need for a plethora of discussion entries when Hermann Göring, like failed chicken farmer: Heinrich Himmler, had been figures of tragi-comedy. No such label can be attached or 'tethered' to Adolf Eichmann who, as everyone knows, had attended the same school in Linz as Adolf H. and Ludwig Wittgenstein.
Example sentence:
What's So Funny About Hermann Goering? Or, Why I'm Afraid of (Political) Clowns
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
ph-b (X)
: se?
3 hrs
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se comporter comme un fou: act or behave like a nincompoop. The verb 'acts' like a reflexive https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/comportement/... DEU: sich wichtigtuerisch verhalten > swagger
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1 hr
liked to play to the gallery
another option -
he was a showman
he fancied himself as an actor
he had delusions of grandeur
he was a showman
he fancied himself as an actor
he had delusions of grandeur
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
ph-b (X)
: Yes, but doesn't the text say that G. himself was the gallery, as it were (se donner la comédie)?
2 hrs
|
17 mins
was delusional
:)
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Note added at 19 mins (2021-08-08 14:11:01 GMT)
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characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder
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Note added at 21 mins (2021-08-08 14:13:33 GMT)
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my first thought was "showing off" and indeed would be in line with Göring's slippery character traits
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Note added at 22 mins (2021-08-08 14:14:32 GMT)
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"playacting" as an alternative
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Note added at 25 mins (2021-08-08 14:16:51 GMT)
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looking forward to native speaker reactions
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Note added at 27 mins (2021-08-08 14:19:22 GMT)
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"putting on a show"
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Note added at 28 mins (2021-08-08 14:20:04 GMT)
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deleted my first post and thanks for your agree on that Conner
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Note added at 28 mins (2021-08-08 14:20:34 GMT)
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Conor
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Note added at 30 mins (2021-08-08 14:22:08 GMT)
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really just means "showing off"
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Note added at 33 mins (2021-08-08 14:25:11 GMT)
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Göring was indeed delusional but should have left my first post in as this is more a case of showing off or playacting
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Note added at 36 mins (2021-08-08 14:28:23 GMT)
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anyway the main thing is to get the right idea so....
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Note added at 1 hr (2021-08-08 15:50:38 GMT)
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sorry I deleted my initial answer
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Note added at 1 hr (2021-08-08 15:51:21 GMT)
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mais tant pis
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Note added at 19 mins (2021-08-08 14:11:01 GMT)
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characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder
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Note added at 21 mins (2021-08-08 14:13:33 GMT)
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my first thought was "showing off" and indeed would be in line with Göring's slippery character traits
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Note added at 22 mins (2021-08-08 14:14:32 GMT)
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"playacting" as an alternative
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Note added at 25 mins (2021-08-08 14:16:51 GMT)
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looking forward to native speaker reactions
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Note added at 27 mins (2021-08-08 14:19:22 GMT)
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"putting on a show"
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Note added at 28 mins (2021-08-08 14:20:04 GMT)
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deleted my first post and thanks for your agree on that Conner
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Note added at 28 mins (2021-08-08 14:20:34 GMT)
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Conor
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Note added at 30 mins (2021-08-08 14:22:08 GMT)
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really just means "showing off"
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Note added at 33 mins (2021-08-08 14:25:11 GMT)
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Göring was indeed delusional but should have left my first post in as this is more a case of showing off or playacting
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Note added at 36 mins (2021-08-08 14:28:23 GMT)
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anyway the main thing is to get the right idea so....
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Note added at 1 hr (2021-08-08 15:50:38 GMT)
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sorry I deleted my initial answer
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Note added at 1 hr (2021-08-08 15:51:21 GMT)
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mais tant pis
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
ph-b (X)
: se?
4 hrs
|
neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: Whether this is true or not, I think that it is a conclusion that might be drawn but is not an accurate rendering. The FR describes a "symptom" and that is the element to be focused on here.
20 hrs
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+4
28 mins
was putting on a performance
The more common construction is "se donner à la" something, I think, but I presume that this means the same thing.
la comédie : acting
un comédien : an actor, more often a theatre actor if I'm not mistaken
When someone is creating a bit of a scene or a bit of a fuss in France, you will often here, "Arrête ta comédie !".
"Arrête ton cinéma !" is similar.
I think there is a better way of putting this but it's not quite coming to me.
Maybe
creating a bit of a scene
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Note added at 31 mins (2021-08-08 14:23:11 GMT)
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trying to get attention
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Note added at 3 hrs (2021-08-08 16:57:56 GMT)
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not here, but HEAR, oops, apologies
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Note added at 3 hrs (2021-08-08 17:09:27 GMT)
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putting on a show
showboating: an annoying form of behaviour, especially in sport, that is intended to attract attention or admiration
la comédie : acting
un comédien : an actor, more often a theatre actor if I'm not mistaken
When someone is creating a bit of a scene or a bit of a fuss in France, you will often here, "Arrête ta comédie !".
"Arrête ton cinéma !" is similar.
I think there is a better way of putting this but it's not quite coming to me.
Maybe
creating a bit of a scene
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Note added at 31 mins (2021-08-08 14:23:11 GMT)
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trying to get attention
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Note added at 3 hrs (2021-08-08 16:57:56 GMT)
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not here, but HEAR, oops, apologies
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Note added at 3 hrs (2021-08-08 17:09:27 GMT)
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putting on a show
showboating: an annoying form of behaviour, especially in sport, that is intended to attract attention or admiration
Peer comment(s):
agree |
philgoddard
2 hrs
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Thanks Phil!
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neutral |
ph-b (X)
: se?/There's no such expression as se donner la comédie (as opposed to donner la comédie), i.e. it is relevant./ERR.: There is, actually, but see my 2nd post in the discussion on the relevance of se.
4 hrs
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Has no relevance, it's just part of the expression. / Read the first line of my explanation. / To be honest, I have lost interest in this question, for obvious reasons, and also I'm in the middle of a massive project that I'm also project-managing.
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agree |
Michele Fauble
: putting on an act
5 hrs
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Thanks Michele!
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agree |
Nicole Acher
9 hrs
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Thanks Nicole!
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agree |
Julie Barber
: yes, I would see it as role playing a part that he has already thought out
19 hrs
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Thanks very much Julie!
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+2
3 hrs
Was putting on an act
You have plenty suggestions but here's mine. I think this would flow well into the rest of you sentence
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Andrew Bramhall
8 mins
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neutral |
ph-b (X)
: se?
1 hr
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agree |
Julie Barber
: I would see it as role playing a part that he has already thought out
16 hrs
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6 hrs
was admiring himself
What about this reflexive construction: 'I have often thought that Goering was admiring himself' or similar?
+1
8 hrs
was on (something of) an ego trip
An option that brings together an element of delusion coupled with self-glorification (ph-b's 'se').
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Daryo
: Being on an "ego trip" is definitely true, but in this text it's not presented that way.
4 hrs
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agree |
ph-b (X)
: Not for me to comment on this as a translation (register?), but I think that's the idea I tried to explain in my discussion posts.
7 hrs
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Reference comments
29 mins
Reference:
Donner la comédie
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
Daryo
: that would then be "making a fool of himself", esp given: Synonymes "se donner en spectacle"
12 hrs
|
20 hrs
Reference:
donner la comédie; se donner la comédie
DONNER LA COMEDIE
https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/donner_la_comédie#:~:text=Loc...
donner la comédie Prononciation ? (se conjugue → voir la conjugaison de donner)
(Figuré) Se faire remarquer par des manières extravagantes et ridicules.
Partout où il va, il donne la comédie.
SE DONNER LA COMEDIE DE QQCHS
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/comédie
"B.− Au fig., fam. et souvent péj.
1. Au sing. (avec l'art. déf.), vieilli. Se donner la comédie de qqc. Se livrer au jeu de quelque chose. Donnez-vous la comédie, quelque jour, de parler de vous-même à des gens de simple connaissance (Balzac, Le Lys dans la vallée,1836, p. 162).
a) Jouer la comédie. Simuler par une mise en scène des sentiments que l'on n'éprouve pas :
5. Il y a la comédie qu'on joue pour tromper les hommes. Celle-là ne m'intéresse pas. Il y a celle qu'on joue par une sorte d'automatisme, parce que l'habitude est prise − qu'il s'agisse des passions ou de simple politesse, celle-là est plus grave, c'est le jeu du monde, autant dire du démon. Je ne puis l'accepter. Green, Journal,1950-54, p. 170.
− [Constructions]
♦ Absol. Elle sentait tout à fait qu'il lui jouait la comédie, qu'il n'y avait pas en lui la moindre sincérité (Daniel-Rops, Mort, où est ta victoire?1934, p. 459).
♦ [Suivi d'un compl. de nom] Elle joua la comédie du cœur brisé, et prit des airs dédaigneux, blasés (A. Daudet, Les Femmes d'artistes,1874, p. 184).[Suivi d'un inf.] Rare. Les choses se font toutes seules. Les hommes jouent la comédie de les accomplir (Valéry, Tel quel II,1943, p. 219).
b) [Chez les enfants et certains adultes à la conduite puérile] Caprice, enfantillage le plus souvent destiné à donner le change. S'il te plaît pas de comédie (Aymé, Les Quatre vérités,1954, p. 197)."
"Prononc. et Orth. : [kɔmedi]. Fait partie des mots en com- ne doublant pas l'm devant voyelle, qui sont une minorité. Ds Ac. 1694-1932. Étymol. et Hist. 1. a) 1370-72 « toute pièce de théâtre à quelque genre qu'elle appartienne » (Oresme, Ethique, IV, 25 ds DG); b) 1661 « la représentation de la pièce » (Molière, Facheux, I, 1); fig. 1666 donner la comédie « se donner en spectacle » (Molière, Misanthrope, I, 1); c) 1668 « lieu où se joue la pièce de théâtre » portier de comédie « celui qui se fait payer pour ouvrir la porte » (Racine, Plaideurs, I, 1); 2. a) 1552 « pièce de théâtre ayant pour but de divertir » (p. oppos. à tragédie) (Jodelle, Eugène, prol.); b) 1663 « ensemble d'actions qui provoquent le rire » (Molière, Critique de l'Ecole des Femmes, 6). Empr. au lat. comoedia (gr. κ ω μ ω δ ι ́ α) « pièce de théâtre, comédie (genre et pièce) ». Fréq. abs. littér. : 3 092. Fréq. rel. littér. : xixes. : a) 4 898, b) 5 112; xxes. : a) 3 371, b) 4 245. Bbg. Cuénot (C.). Z. rom. Philol. 1938, t. 58, pp. 610-614. − Gottsch. Redens. 1930, pp. 345-346. − Koch (P.). On Marivaux's expression se donner la comédie. Rom. R. 1965, t. 56, pp. 22-29. − Sain. Lang. par. 1920, p. 395. − Voltz (P.). La Comédie. Paris, 1964. − Winkler (E.). Zur Geschichte des Begriffs Comédie in Frankreich. Heidelberg, 1937.
RESUME
"Donner la comédie" = se faire remarquer par des manières extravagantes et ridicules.
"Se donner la comédie" = se donner en spectacle; se livrer au jeu de quelque chose
There is a difference between the two expressions. I suggest:
- "donner la comédie" describes the nature of the behaviour employed
- "se donner la comédie" describes the fact of employing such behaviour, adopting such an attidude
https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/donner_la_comédie#:~:text=Loc...
donner la comédie Prononciation ? (se conjugue → voir la conjugaison de donner)
(Figuré) Se faire remarquer par des manières extravagantes et ridicules.
Partout où il va, il donne la comédie.
SE DONNER LA COMEDIE DE QQCHS
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/comédie
"B.− Au fig., fam. et souvent péj.
1. Au sing. (avec l'art. déf.), vieilli. Se donner la comédie de qqc. Se livrer au jeu de quelque chose. Donnez-vous la comédie, quelque jour, de parler de vous-même à des gens de simple connaissance (Balzac, Le Lys dans la vallée,1836, p. 162).
a) Jouer la comédie. Simuler par une mise en scène des sentiments que l'on n'éprouve pas :
5. Il y a la comédie qu'on joue pour tromper les hommes. Celle-là ne m'intéresse pas. Il y a celle qu'on joue par une sorte d'automatisme, parce que l'habitude est prise − qu'il s'agisse des passions ou de simple politesse, celle-là est plus grave, c'est le jeu du monde, autant dire du démon. Je ne puis l'accepter. Green, Journal,1950-54, p. 170.
− [Constructions]
♦ Absol. Elle sentait tout à fait qu'il lui jouait la comédie, qu'il n'y avait pas en lui la moindre sincérité (Daniel-Rops, Mort, où est ta victoire?1934, p. 459).
♦ [Suivi d'un compl. de nom] Elle joua la comédie du cœur brisé, et prit des airs dédaigneux, blasés (A. Daudet, Les Femmes d'artistes,1874, p. 184).[Suivi d'un inf.] Rare. Les choses se font toutes seules. Les hommes jouent la comédie de les accomplir (Valéry, Tel quel II,1943, p. 219).
b) [Chez les enfants et certains adultes à la conduite puérile] Caprice, enfantillage le plus souvent destiné à donner le change. S'il te plaît pas de comédie (Aymé, Les Quatre vérités,1954, p. 197)."
"Prononc. et Orth. : [kɔmedi]. Fait partie des mots en com- ne doublant pas l'm devant voyelle, qui sont une minorité. Ds Ac. 1694-1932. Étymol. et Hist. 1. a) 1370-72 « toute pièce de théâtre à quelque genre qu'elle appartienne » (Oresme, Ethique, IV, 25 ds DG); b) 1661 « la représentation de la pièce » (Molière, Facheux, I, 1); fig. 1666 donner la comédie « se donner en spectacle » (Molière, Misanthrope, I, 1); c) 1668 « lieu où se joue la pièce de théâtre » portier de comédie « celui qui se fait payer pour ouvrir la porte » (Racine, Plaideurs, I, 1); 2. a) 1552 « pièce de théâtre ayant pour but de divertir » (p. oppos. à tragédie) (Jodelle, Eugène, prol.); b) 1663 « ensemble d'actions qui provoquent le rire » (Molière, Critique de l'Ecole des Femmes, 6). Empr. au lat. comoedia (gr. κ ω μ ω δ ι ́ α) « pièce de théâtre, comédie (genre et pièce) ». Fréq. abs. littér. : 3 092. Fréq. rel. littér. : xixes. : a) 4 898, b) 5 112; xxes. : a) 3 371, b) 4 245. Bbg. Cuénot (C.). Z. rom. Philol. 1938, t. 58, pp. 610-614. − Gottsch. Redens. 1930, pp. 345-346. − Koch (P.). On Marivaux's expression se donner la comédie. Rom. R. 1965, t. 56, pp. 22-29. − Sain. Lang. par. 1920, p. 395. − Voltz (P.). La Comédie. Paris, 1964. − Winkler (E.). Zur Geschichte des Begriffs Comédie in Frankreich. Heidelberg, 1937.
RESUME
"Donner la comédie" = se faire remarquer par des manières extravagantes et ridicules.
"Se donner la comédie" = se donner en spectacle; se livrer au jeu de quelque chose
There is a difference between the two expressions. I suggest:
- "donner la comédie" describes the nature of the behaviour employed
- "se donner la comédie" describes the fact of employing such behaviour, adopting such an attidude
Discussion
Added these trms to my answer subsequently.
Au sing. (avec l'art. déf.), vieilli. Se donner la comédie de qqc. Se livrer au jeu de quelque chose. Donnez-vous la comédie, quelque jour, de parler de vous-même à des gens de simple connaissance (Balzac, Le Lys dans la vallée,1836, p. 162)." (https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/comédie) I get the impression that by taking stolen works of art to Germany in this manner, G was finally achieving something he had been dreaming of and that he was sort of "enacting for himself" (se) a scene he had (often?) rehearsed in his mind - cf. tout ce processus avait été rêvé avant d’être réalisé, not to mention il jouissait de se voir… ! I don't think that any audience - apart from himself - is meant here and the translation should reflect this.
"putting on a show for his own enjoyment"?
That could take into the equation the reflexive pronoun, i.e. Göring being his own audience.
Like a lot of actors do.
https://mobile-dictionary.reverso.net/en/english-definition/...