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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

même et semblable état

English translation:

same and like state

Added to glossary by Joan Berglund
Mar 21, 2011 13:19
13 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term

même et semblable état

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) Compensation for expropriated property
This is from a discussion of fair compensation for private property expropriated for public works projects in the Congo. The compensation must be:
"juste en ce sens qu'elle doit réparer l'intégralité du préjudice, l'exproprié devant être replacé, dans un même et semblable état". I get a lot of hits for the French phrase, but only one translation for the literal "same and similar condition". Does anyone know an equivalent standard English phrase?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 same and like state
4 +1 same/original condition
4 identical (same) Or similar state
4 in a similar situation

Discussion

AllegroTrans Mar 21, 2011:
and another citation which now convinces me that this is a valid French legal term and therefore it is translatable

ANNULATION, RESCISION, RÉSOLUTION, RÉSILIATION

annulation : Acte juridictionnel par lequel un tribunal constate l'existence d'une cause de nullité et décide en conséquence que l'acte vicié sera rétroactivement tenu pour non avenu, les choses étant remises «dans le même et semblable état » où elles se trouvaient avant l'acte incriminé (CORNU).

Effet de l'annulation : «Le contrat frappé de nullité est réputé n'avoir jamais existé.

Chacune des parties est, dans ce cas, tenue de restituer à l'autre les prestations qu'elle a reçues». (art. 1422 C.c.Q.)

La rescision signifie l'annulation fondée sur la nullité relative du contrat (pour vice de consentement, par exemple; voir art. 1407 C.c.Q.).

résolution : Dissolution...(d'un contrat) pour inexécution des conditions (Petit ROBERT)

résiliation : nom que prend la résolution... dans les contrats successifs qui excluent la rétroactivité (CORNU).

Cette distinction est explicitée dans l'article 1604 C.c.Q.
cc in nyc Mar 21, 2011:
One more citation ...this time, from a French language forum, regarding the expression "être nul et non avenu":

Sur cette expr. pléonastique, cf. R. Lindon, Le Style et l'éloquence judiciaires, Paris, Albin Michel, 1968, p. 39 : ,,Ces excès sont ridicules. Même sans mériter cette épithète, d'autres clichés sont de purs pléonasmes. Pourquoi « nul et non avenu », (...) « en même et semblable état », « pour servir et valoir ce que de droit »? Je sais bien qu'ils viennent naturellement sous la plume, mais il me semble qu'il y aurait profit à les éliminer.`` [boldface added]
http://www.forum-metaphysique.com/t6567-etre-nul-et-non-aven...

EDIT: This same passage is cited in TLFi, advenu II.A.2.a.2) Rem.
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/advenu//1
cc in nyc Mar 21, 2011:
There is some history... même et semlbable état has some legs. See, for instance:

mais seulement elles retourneront en même et semblable état qu'elles étaient... (1826)
http://books.google.com/books?id=4EoWAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA96&lp...

remet les parties au même et semblable état qu'elles étaient... (1836)
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q="même et...

les parties lussent remises au même et semblable état qu'elles étaient... (1894)
http://books.google.com/books?id=uJQKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA684&lpg=P...

etc.
AllegroTrans Mar 21, 2011:
Barbara Finch makes a very good point and unless there is a typo and "et" should read "ou" I think it would be wise to go back to the client
philgoddard Mar 21, 2011:
Good point. In that case it's either legalistic redundancy and should be translated as "the same", or the nearest English equivalent is "the same or similar". But I'm not sure which.
Joan Berglund (asker) Mar 21, 2011:
@Phil That would make a lot more sense to me, but I actually got about 20,000 ghits for the French term with "et" and very few with "ou", so it does appear to be some kind of standard legalese. The literal translation is not standard in English, though, but maybe we have an equivalent phrase?
philgoddard Mar 21, 2011:
It looks like a contradiction in terms to me - "same and similar". Maybe they mean "même ou semblable".

Proposed translations

+2
7 hrs
Selected

same and like state

Yes it is double-speak, but as lawyers know, it's done "for the avoidance of any doubt".
Googling my suggested answer shows that "same and like" is used in English legalese. 2 examples:

#
26 F1d 273 | OpenJurist
273 for the same and like purposes, only in the construction of one or two of the parts, ... and the court cannot say, as a matter of law, that the license fee should govern. ...
openjurist.org/26/f1d/273 - Cached
#
[PDF]
COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF PHILADELPHIA ORPHANS' COURT DIVISION ...
25k - Adobe PDF - View as html
law to vest a fee simple title in the purchaser or purchasers, mortgagee or ... sale or mortgages upon the same and like uses and trusts with the same and like ...
courts.phila.gov/pdf/opinions/orphans/200400619IV.pdf

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2011-03-21 20:25:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

#
House of Lords Journal Volume 9 - 20 August 1647 | British ...
From 'House of Lords Journal Volume 9 - 20 August 1647', pp.388-398 (1767-1830) ... Clerk of the Stores, in the same and like Manner, to all Intents and Purposes, ...
www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=37109 - 284k - Cached

#
Plato, The Laws, Books X, XI and XII
And now having spoken of assaults, let us sum up all acts of violence ... is in one place move in the same and like manner, in and about the same, and in ...
thriceholy.net/Texts/Laws4.html - 235k - Cached

#
Oliver Cromwell - The Founding of the Protectorate
The new Protectoral Council gathered again on Saturday 17 December to draw up ... shall stand and be in the same and like force to all intents and purposes as ...
www.olivercromwell.org/protectorate/protectorate_4.htm - Cached
#
Peer comment(s):
agree Brindusa Simionescu
7 mins
thank you
agree Alain Mouchel
3 days 46 mins
thank you
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "thanks very much."
33 mins

identical (same) Or similar state

I suppose one wanted to say ou instead of et
Peer comment(s):
agree B D Finch : But, it's important to check with the client, particularly as this is a legal document.
3 hrs
disagree cc in nyc : I believe there's ample evidence for même et semblable état
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 hr

in a similar situation

'même et semblable' seems to be one of those tautologies or legal pairs that are words of (almost) identical meaning grouped in pairs or sometimes even triplets. these phrases are used mainly for aesthetic purposes without adding much to the textual meaning. If this is the case there are many chances that there is no twin expression in English so you may leave out the aesthetic effect and only translate the meaning

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2011-03-21 15:03:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

similar expressions: null and void, act and deed
Peer comment(s):
neutral B D Finch : As the two words do not mean the same thing, there is a problem dealing with this in a legal document and a question to the client is probably necessary. Lawyers don't usually insert confusion for "aesthetic effect".
2 hrs
Obviously they don't. The 'confusion' is intrinsic to this type of expressions(see Gouadec, D. Guide Pratique de la Traduction Juridique, Chapitre X, 'Les tautologies ou legal pairs' p 70 ) and many more.
neutral AllegroTrans : "similar" is too unspecific in a legal context as it is too open to interpretation
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

same/original condition

No problem with the redundancy in French (check out the easydroit.fr site), but the redundancy is not used so much in English.

But without the entire sentence, it's hard to say whether "same condition" or "original condition" is intended.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2011-03-21 20:36:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If you feel that you must use a pleonasm, I would suggest same and like condition.
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
12 mins
Thank you!
neutral B D Finch : It seems more like a contradiction than redundancy: similar is like but not the same as.// Legal documents have to be rather more precise and your reference shows the list of terms as only partial synonyms. NB length of green bar beside each
2 hrs
Perhaps, but sometimes semblable is indeed synonymous with même; see http://www.cnrtl.fr/synonymie/semblable // Most synonyms are partial... But I don't think that the easydroit site intends the (French) statements to be contradictory
Something went wrong...
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