| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | ize vs. ise Thread poster: Richard Hill
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Richard Hill 
Mexico
Local time: 17:43
Member (2011)
Spanish to English
As an SP-EN translator based in Mexico most of my work used to be into US English but since starting to apply for jobs through Proz around 18 months ago, it's now around 50-50 US and UK English, and I had been using ize spellings for the US and ise for the UK until the other day when working on a translation for the UN where the client asked me to follow the guidelines of the "United Nations Editorial Manual Online" where, for some reason, they specify "ize" spelling and the use of "The Concise ... See more As an SP-EN translator based in Mexico most of my work used to be into US English but since starting to apply for jobs through Proz around 18 months ago, it's now around 50-50 US and UK English, and I had been using ize spellings for the US and ise for the UK until the other day when working on a translation for the UN where the client asked me to follow the guidelines of the "United Nations Editorial Manual Online" where, for some reason, they specify "ize" spelling and the use of "The Concise Oxford English Dictionary, twelfth edition" as the current authority for spelling in the United Nations, which also uses "ize" spelling http://69.94.137.26/editorialcontrol/ed-guidelines/style/spelling.htm
One the other hand, the guidelines of the "European Commission Directorate-General for Translation" specifies "ise" spelling: "Words in -ise/-ize. Use -ise. Both spellings are correct in British English, but the -ise form is now much more common in the media. Using the -ise spelling does away with the need to list the most common cases where it must be used anyway. (There are up to 40 exceptions to the -ize convention: the lists vary in length, few claiming to be exhaustive.)" http://www.4buku.com/english-style-guide-european-commission-europa-pdf.html#.UQFbfyc70b0
So, basically, I'd be interested to know your criteria for "ize" and "ise" spelling.
[Edited at 2013-01-24 16:07 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-01-24 16:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 00:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Mixed approach | Jan 24, 2013 |
I'm a Brit. I usually use ise, but if I think that the word look funny I use ize. For newer concepts I use ize.
At school I used to use ize for everything!
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:43
Hebrew to English
I just use "-ize" because I prefer it (and it's more etymologically 'correct' when used on verbs originating from the Greek "-izo" - which is largely why Oxford spelling prefers it, I believe).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_spelling
....unless specified by the client not to use it, of course.
And I love th... See more I just use "-ize" because I prefer it (and it's more etymologically 'correct' when used on verbs originating from the Greek "-izo" - which is largely why Oxford spelling prefers it, I believe).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_spelling
....unless specified by the client not to use it, of course.
And I love this rant on the subject:
http://www.metadyne.co.uk/ize.html ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:43
French to English
+ ...
| Take into account client, intended audience and context | Jan 24, 2013 |
I would generally tend towards the -ise spellings where either (a) the intended audience was primarily British, or (b) for a UK client that stated no preference. And conversely, I would tend towards the -ize spellings in the opposite case (specified US audience or US client with no stated preference).
I think it's fair to say that -ise remains the 'traditional' UK spelling, though it is true that various UK publishers and authors opt for the -ize spellings. At the end of the day, bo... See more I would generally tend towards the -ise spellings where either (a) the intended audience was primarily British, or (b) for a UK client that stated no preference. And conversely, I would tend towards the -ize spellings in the opposite case (specified US audience or US client with no stated preference).
I think it's fair to say that -ise remains the 'traditional' UK spelling, though it is true that various UK publishers and authors opt for the -ize spellings. At the end of the day, both conventions exist, and most readers of English will generally be used to seeing either convention. Even if they expected -ize, a reader reading an -ise variant will most likely think "they're using the UK convention" rather than "they made a spelling mistake".
[I would say more difficult cases are less 'systematic' variants: for an international audience, whether you write "to practise" or "to practice", it seems that some proportion of your readers will think that you've made a spelling mistake.]
The OED editors' argumentation behind preferring the -ize spelling isn't terribly compelling. Which letter you use to represent a particular sound in a particular context is entirely arbitrary: Latin writers chose 'z' in such cases, whereas French writers (and then English writers) chose 's'. You could choose to mimic French writers or Latin writers or invent some other scheme or alphabet; neither is really inherently more logical than the other. ▲ Collapse
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The letter ‘z’ looks scary and is not welcome in British English. The reprobates at the OED take a perverse delight in thumbing their collective nose at the public they are supposed to serve; they are much more in tune with the spelling conventions of gangsta rap.
| | | | | Agree with Tatty | Jan 24, 2013 |
I second Tatty's approach: use -ise unless it looks funny. In particular, 'emphasize', 'fantasize' and other words ending with -size look very strange to me with -sise.
And of course, there are a few words always ending with -ize (e.g. 'capsize') or -ise (e.g. 'exercise').
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 00:43
Italian to English
In memoriam | Not a matter of personal preference | Jan 25, 2013 |
In practical terms, it is in the translator's interest is to avoid wasting time arguing with customers over the vagaries of English spelling.
Many customers and agencies, particularly those in publishing, tend to have their own in-house style guides, or to favour one of the standard guides, which means you may well have to change style from job to job. For those clients that do not have their own rules, it is a good idea to nominate a guide in advance and stick to it.
C... See more In practical terms, it is in the translator's interest is to avoid wasting time arguing with customers over the vagaries of English spelling.
Many customers and agencies, particularly those in publishing, tend to have their own in-house style guides, or to favour one of the standard guides, which means you may well have to change style from job to job. For those clients that do not have their own rules, it is a good idea to nominate a guide in advance and stick to it.
Copy editors and agency revisers will thank you for it! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Depends on the customer's self-perception of being a connoisseur of English (or not) | Jan 25, 2013 |
First, the etymology:
All verbs in '-ise/-ize', and nouns/participles derived from them, go back to the Greek verb-making suffix -iz-. The forty exceptions you refer to in the original post have to do with words that entered Latin->Norman French->English so early, when the letter 'z' was hardly in use in Western Europe, that the only established form is with an 's', e.g. 'practise' (never '*practize' or indeed '*praktize'!). Page 4, para. 2.2, of the PDF you linked not... See more First, the etymology:
All verbs in '-ise/-ize', and nouns/participles derived from them, go back to the Greek verb-making suffix -iz-. The forty exceptions you refer to in the original post have to do with words that entered Latin->Norman French->English so early, when the letter 'z' was hardly in use in Western Europe, that the only established form is with an 's', e.g. 'practise' (never '*practize' or indeed '*praktize'!). Page 4, para. 2.2, of the PDF you linked notes that few lists of these exceptions claim to be exhaustive, but what these words largely have in common is that due to the transmission chain of the word into English, the '-ise' syllable is rarely or never stressed.
A further complication with 'practise/-ice' is that the old convention used to be:
Commonwealth: verb 'practise', noun 'practice'
U.S.: verb 'practise', noun 'practise'
— but a few years ago (and as is reflected in the Wiktionary entry), U.S. convention changed — counter-intuitively — to use 'practice' (the 'c' normally being thought of as a British/Commonwealth preference) in all parts of speech, even for the present participle (U.S. journalism now prefers 'practicing', it seems) but not, it seems, for the past participle (which is still 'practised' in most cases, it seems).
But those early exceptions, common words though they mostly are, are now dwarfed in comparison with (largely C18th) neologisms based on the Greek, in most cases coined directly in English/French/German by Enlightenment scholars without having been attested in 'authentic' Latin or Norman French texts, and the correct form for those was universally '-ize' in English until the early 20th century at least. (As late as the 1980s, I was being told at a conservative British school by the most learned of the teachers that using a 'z' was not inherently U.S. convention, that it was a shame that it was disappearing in British writing, and that it was faithful to the Greek origin of the words.) Then there is a period, roughly the early to mid-20th century, in which it is increasingly 'scholarly' to use the 'z' in British writing; then the silly snobbery starts, in about the 1950s I think, that 'z' is 'American', reaching journalists and the Civil Service around the 1970s. (Whitehall mandarins who fancy themselves well educated will now reject reports by their juniors that have the 'z' form, particularly if they are derived from U.S. government sources, on the pretext that the writer failed to 'Anglicise' the spelling. The same has happened with British/Commonwealth versions of post-WWII Bible translations originally written in the U.S.: the British middle class has decided to spurn the 'z' as a manifestation of not being American.) For that reason alone, I continued to use/retain the 'z' as often as I could get away with it while I was in the Civil Service, to show these middle managers up for the pygmies they are.
So, the migration to 's' in British English has to do with postwar insecurity in society, coupled with the fact that knowledge of Greek disappeared from the British middle classes in the same era, leaving them with the feeling that what is correct in French (now the only foreign language of which they are not entirely ignorant) must be correct for all languages. It has now percolated through to senior British journalists and officials.
As for how to handle clients:
My experience in the Netherlands is that clients will divide on this point into:
(a) those who do not even pretend to know enough English or Greek to make a judgement on the matter;
(b) those who pride themselves on being (as they fancy) the 'American' kind of learner of English and who think translations made for them should have the 'z' form to reflect what they fancy to be a distinctive of U.S. English, which in turn they fancy to be global, forward-looking English (these are the same customers who have already called their institute the So-and-So Center to make the point that they are 'international' U.S. English types);
(c) those — a dwindling band, but also found in (northern) Germany, Scandinavia, (northern) Italy and the former communist bloc — who pride themselves in an equal and opposite way on being 'cultured' 'British English' learners and who want the 's' to badge themselves as such.
The sad news to break to clients of types (b) and (c), if one has the gumption, is that they have so much more to learn than they ever imagined before either their written or spoken English is polished enough to project itself consistently as either U.S. or British in usage.
Well, that is my approach to Dutch clients (who in the main will appreciate a frank exchange of views), but it might be too brusque for clients in other societies!
Alex
[Edited at 2013-01-25 12:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 00:43
Spanish to English
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I'm not looking at any of the other posts before responding, as I have my own strong opinion about this issue.
I was brought up to use the "s" forms preferentially and although both “ise/ize” are accepted in UK English, I seem to remember a teacher saying once that the "ize" form was more "American" and this comment seems to have stuck with me. Moreover, since prohibition usually tends to make the forbidden item/s more desirable, the mere fact that US spelling convention frow... See more I'm not looking at any of the other posts before responding, as I have my own strong opinion about this issue.
I was brought up to use the "s" forms preferentially and although both “ise/ize” are accepted in UK English, I seem to remember a teacher saying once that the "ize" form was more "American" and this comment seems to have stuck with me. Moreover, since prohibition usually tends to make the forbidden item/s more desirable, the mere fact that US spelling convention frowns upon the "ise" form makes me want to use it even more!
I don't mind using the “ize” forms myself if necessary, but what I am less keen on in US spelling conventions is the suppression of double consonants, which believe it or not are there in the first place for a reason. I keep wanting to pronounce the “vel” in “traveled” like “veal”, and I find it offputting.
However, I always make a point of asking my clients if they want their translations in UK (European) or US (American) English, as these are the most common variants I work in, and I normally get a US native speaker to check my drafts if they request the latter option. ▲ Collapse
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 00:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Use with discretion | Jan 25, 2013 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
I would generally tend towards the -ise spellings where either (a) the intended audience was primarily British, or (b) for a UK client that stated no preference. And conversely, I would tend towards the -ize spellings in the opposite case (specified US audience or US client with no stated preference).
The OED editors' argumentation behind preferring the -ize spelling isn't terribly compelling. Which letter you use to represent a particular sound in a particular context is entirely arbitrary: Latin writers chose 'z' in such cases, whereas French writers (and then English writers) chose 's'. You could choose to mimic French writers or Latin writers or invent some other scheme or alphabet; neither is really inherently more logical than the other.
Wholehearted agreement here
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 00:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Looming hegemony | Jan 25, 2013 |
Andrew Swift wrote:
The letter ‘z’ looks scary and is not welcome in British English. The reprobates at the OED take a perverse delight in thumbing their collective nose at the public they are supposed to serve; they are much more in tune with the spelling conventions of gangsta rap.
I agree, the rot set in ages ago. They've sold out.
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 00:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Au contraire | Jan 25, 2013 |
Anton Konashenok wrote:
I second Tatty's approach: use -ise unless it looks funny. In particular, 'emphasize', 'fantasize' and other words ending with -size look very strange to me with -sise.
And of course, there are a few words always ending with -ize (e.g. 'capsize') or -ise (e.g. 'exercise').
Nowt as queer as folk - I really can't be doing with the "ize" version of fantasise or emphasise and I just can't bring myself to recognise "recognize"...
Vive la difference!
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 00:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
| The best policy | Jan 25, 2013 |
Giles Watson wrote:
In practical terms, it is in the translator's interest is to avoid wasting time arguing with customers over the vagaries of English spelling.
Many customers and agencies, particularly those in publishing, tend to have their own in-house style guides, or to favour one of the standard guides, which means you may well have to change style from job to job. For those clients that do not have their own rules, it is a good idea to nominate a guide in advance and stick to it.
Copy editors and agency revisers will thank you for it!
Best advice so far IMO. There's really no point in quibbling, although it can be fun
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 00:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
Alexander C. Thomson wrote:
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(c) those — a dwindling band, but also found in (northern) Germany, Scandinavia, (northern) Italy and the former communist bloc — who pride themselves in an equal and opposite way on being 'cultured' 'British English' learners and who want the 's' to badge themselves as such.
Alex
[Edited at 2013-01-25 08:54 GMT]
You've obviously researched this thoroughly. All I can add is that despite it all, I'm still quite happy to fall into the "c" group of dwindlers
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Ty Kendall wrote:
I just use "-ize" because I prefer it (and it's more etymologically 'correct' when used on verbs originating from the Greek "-izo" - which is largely why Oxford spelling prefers it, I believe).
The Oxford spelling favours the 'ze' spelling for words originating from Latin such as organize. I tend to use the 'se' variant because I mainly do technical translations where this is the preferred option but will use the 'ze' version when asked by the customer.
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