| Страници в темата: < [1 2 3 4] > | Clearing up PRO/non-PRO confusion Автор на темата: Neil Coffey
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Neil Coffey 
Обединеното кралство
Local time: 07:18
Френски на Английски
+ ...
АВТОР НА ТЕМАТА | Frustrating... | Jan 20, 2010 |
Enrique wrote:
In this article Henry includes as example of non-PRO questions:
- I love you
- Welcome to Panama
n fact when users vote for making a question non-PRO, the following confirmation label is shown to them:
[/quote]
Thanks Enrique, I'd forgotten about the confirmation label. Though even more frustratingly, this means that multiple colleagues have clicked a button to say they believe that "procédure de codification informatique" can be translated by any bilingual without a dictionary...
I wonder if they'd still click the button if the list of examples was also presented to them.
| | | | | Good suggestion! | Jan 20, 2010 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
Enrique wrote:
In this article Henry includes as example of non-PRO questions:
- I love you
- Welcome to Panama
n fact when users vote for making a question non-PRO, the following confirmation label is shown to them:
Thanks Enrique, I'd forgotten about the confirmation label. Though even more frustratingly, this means that multiple colleagues have clicked a button to say they believe that "procédure de codification informatique" can be translated by any bilingual without a dictionary...
I wonder if they'd still click the button if the list of examples was also presented to them. [/quote]
Thanks Neil,
This is a great suggestion. The examples given by Henry will be added to the confirmation label.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | | Pro-example: multiple discussion box entries | Jan 20, 2010 |
Any question that generates a lively discussion among peers – and here I mean a linguistic discussion about shades of meaning, cultural differences, language register – automatically qualifies as a Pro question, in my opinion.
A reclassification of such questions to “non-pro” not only robs the translator with the “winning” suggestion of their points, but also discredits the peers who contributed their expertise: after all, who would want to be perceived as arguing abo... See more Any question that generates a lively discussion among peers – and here I mean a linguistic discussion about shades of meaning, cultural differences, language register – automatically qualifies as a Pro question, in my opinion.
A reclassification of such questions to “non-pro” not only robs the translator with the “winning” suggestion of their points, but also discredits the peers who contributed their expertise: after all, who would want to be perceived as arguing about a simple, straightforward term?
If in doubt, I’ll choose pro.
johanna ▲ Collapse
| | | | | robs and discredits? | Jan 21, 2010 |
Johanna Timm, PhD wrote:
Any question that generates a lively discussion among peers – and here I mean a linguistic discussion about shades of meaning, cultural differences, language register – automatically qualifies as a Pro question, in my opinion.
A reclassification of such questions to “non-pro” not only robs the translator with the “winning” suggestion of their points, but also discredits the peers who contributed their expertise: after all, who would want to be perceived as arguing about a simple, straightforward term?
If in doubt, I’ll choose pro.
johanna
Afaik, "If in doubt, I’ll choose pro" was the semi-official approach taken/proposed by moderators in the past. It's 50/50 because lively discussions are often enabled by easy to discuss questions. Cultural differences may be discussed simply because Asker failed to mention the country concerned or the target audience.
But the idea of 'discrediting' and 'robbing' people puts a lot of emphasis on the 'importance' of earning those sacred KudoZ points and downgrades the importance of helping people regardless. What about all those people 'robbed' and 'discredited" (by the lowered acceptance ratio) when the "most helpful" answer chosen is useless in the real world and accurate answers are left without those pointZ.
Imo, it's time for a change in the definition of pro/non-pro. First of all I feel that the questions should be labeled difficult or easy, so it's clear that the questions are being referred to and not the person asking/answering. That would remove the most of the "discrediting' aspect.
Proz advertises itself as a "Translation Workplace", not as a playground for bilingual people. Kudoz questions are being asked by people listed on the site as professional translators. Being a 'professional translator' includes more than just accepting paid translation jobs. Professional translation work involves a great deal of research, language and writing skills, thought and concentration. A professional translator doesn't bother colleagues with terms found in any dictionary or on the www unless those terms aren't helping in the particular context. This explanation is then provided to colleagues so they don't waste their valuable time looking up dictionary translations or pasting/copying www suggestions that have already been rejected by Asker in his/her own research. This attitude/approach will prevent unjustly downgrading a question to easy/non-pro and no one will end up discredited or robbed.
And Kudoz will become a more professional venue too, to the benefit and credit of all Prozians.
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Rob Grayson
Обединеното кралство
Local time: 07:18
Френски на Английски
I would just like to add my total agreement with writeaway's comments.
I'm not going to propose a definition of what should and should not be classed as a Pro question. I will simply agree with writeaway that there is a growing problem which is evidently not being helped by the existing definition. That problem is an increasing number of questions being posted which could be answered:
- by looking in a dictionary, and/or
- by spending often no more than 30 seconds... See more I would just like to add my total agreement with writeaway's comments.
I'm not going to propose a definition of what should and should not be classed as a Pro question. I will simply agree with writeaway that there is a growing problem which is evidently not being helped by the existing definition. That problem is an increasing number of questions being posted which could be answered:
- by looking in a dictionary, and/or
- by spending often no more than 30 seconds searching on Google, and/or
- by searching the KudoZ archives
To make matters worse, such questions are often posted as part of a series of similar questions, each of which has zero context and no explanation as to where the difficulty lies. One cannot help but get the feeling that KudoZ is often used by those who either do not have the linguistic skills to operate at a professional level, or are too lazy to bother doing any of their own research. In any case, labelling such questions as "Pro", and thus suggesting that they are indicative of the level of question that requires a language professional to resolve, is, in my opinion, misleading and demeaning to the profession. Unfortunately, posting any comment to this effect or even asking the asker why the question has been posted often results in the post being hidden by a moderator due to being "non-linguistic" in nature.
The amount of discussion generated should in no way be used as a determining factor in deciding whether a question is Pro or non-Pro. As writeaway suggested, there has been no shortage of extremely easy questions which have somehow managed to generate significant discussion.
Rob ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Confirmation message made more clear and explicit | Jan 21, 2010 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
Enrique wrote:
In this article Henry includes as example of non-PRO questions:
- I love you
- Welcome to Panama
n fact when users vote for making a question non-PRO, the following confirmation label is shown to them:
Thanks Enrique, I'd forgotten about the confirmation label. Though even more frustratingly, this means that multiple colleagues have clicked a button to say they believe that "procédure de codification informatique" can be translated by any bilingual without a dictionary...
I wonder if they'd still click the button if the list of examples was also presented to them. [/quote]
Following Neil's suggestion, the confirmation message shown when a user attempts to vote non-PRO a KudoZ question has made the meaning of non-PRO more clear and explicit.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Rob Grayson
Обединеното кралство
Local time: 07:18
Френски на Английски
| But Enrique... | Jan 21, 2010 |
..surely you will agree that the examples quoted are not the only types of phrase that any bilingual person would be able to answer without the aid of a dictionary? The examples listed are the simplest of the simple. Or perhaps you are implying that anything other than grade school level language needs to be translated by a professional?
Rob
| | | | philgoddard
Съединени американски щати
Немски на Английски
+ ...
| I agree with Rob. | Jan 21, 2010 |
I love you
- Welcome to Panama
- Since when?
- thermos
- mmm, yummy
- boo!
I think these examples are very badly chosen. What it's basically saying is "only mind-bogglingly simple, near-monosyllabic words and phrases can be non-PRO".
I just voted "analisi della situazione finanziaria di un cliente" as non-PRO. Any bilingual person could translate that - it doesn't need a specialist translator. So was I wrong?
[Edited at 2010-01-21 ... See more I love you
- Welcome to Panama
- Since when?
- thermos
- mmm, yummy
- boo!
I think these examples are very badly chosen. What it's basically saying is "only mind-bogglingly simple, near-monosyllabic words and phrases can be non-PRO".
I just voted "analisi della situazione finanziaria di un cliente" as non-PRO. Any bilingual person could translate that - it doesn't need a specialist translator. So was I wrong?
[Edited at 2010-01-21 14:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| This is the kind of question that originated the PRO and non-PRO categories | Jan 21, 2010 |
Rob Grayson wrote:
..surely you will agree that the examples quoted are not the only types of phrase that any bilingual person would be able to answer without the aid of a dictionary? The examples listed are the simplest of the simple. Or perhaps you are implying that anything other than grade school level language needs to be translated by a professional?
Please let me quote Henry:
Sometimes people who are not translators use the KudoZ service to ask how to translate simple expressions, such as "I love you". While some ProZ.com members don't mind answering questions like these, others find them a source of annoyance. In order to meet the needs of both types of member, the category of "non-PRO" questions was created.
PRO and non-PRO questions are handled differently, and members have been given a means of deciding whether or not they want to be exposed to non-PRO questions. It is possible for a member to set alert and display preferences in such a way that s/he will not be alerted of, and will not see on the site, non-PRO questions.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | | New message is insulting and degrading | Jan 21, 2010 |
philgoddard wrote:
I love you
- Welcome to Panama
- Since when?
- thermos
- mmm, yummy
- boo!
I think these examples are very badly chosen. What it's basically saying is "only mind-bogglingly simple, near-monosyllabic words and phrases can be non-PRO".
I just voted "analisi della situazione finanziaria di un cliente" as non-PRO. Any bilingual person could translate that - it doesn't need a specialist translator. So was I wrong?
[Edited at 2010-01-21 14:58 GMT]
Wow-that was surely implemented quickly!! But please reconsider it Enrique. It's positively insulting and degrading.
If that is the official attitude, then please remove all pro/non-pro categorisation. It's turning into a sad joke-of all the suggestions posted over time in all these different forum postings, how did this last one fly past to "to do" list and get implemented without further ado? The wording and examples are truly unfortunate. Especially for a "Translation Workplace". I understand the desire to make Proz accessible and welcoming to all, but imo this last step is really taking things too far.
[Edited at 2010-01-21 16:48 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Франция
Local time: 08:18
Френски на Немски
+ ...
| I beg your pardon ;)? | Jan 21, 2010 |
philgoddard wrote:
I just voted "analisi della situazione finanziaria di un cliente" as non-PRO. Any bilingual person could translate that - it doesn't need a specialist translator. So was I wrong?
[Edited at 2010-01-21 14:58 GMT]
I am able to translate this into English, German and French with the remainders of my 3 years college Italian. So yes, you were right - this is clearly what I would call an non-Pro question (or an "unprofessional" approach on the asker's side).
| | | | Rob Grayson
Обединеното кралство
Local time: 07:18
Френски на Английски
| Just because Henry said it, doesn't mean it makes sense | Jan 21, 2010 |
Sometimes people who are not translators use the KudoZ service to ask how to translate simple expressions, such as "I love you". While some ProZ.com members don't mind answering questions like these, others find them a source of annoyance. In order to meet the needs of both types of member, the category of "non-PRO" questions was created.
PRO and non-PRO questions are handled differently, and members have been given a means of deciding whether or not they want to be exposed to non-PRO questions. It is possible for a member to set alert and display preferences in such a way that s/he will not be alerted of, and will not see on the site, non-PRO questions.
Here's the point: an increasing number of extremely basic questions are posted as Pro. Hence, even if you change your settings to be notified of only Pro questions, you will still be bombarded with, frankly, insultingly easy questions. Is this really what professionals on a "translation workplace" should be reduced to – translating ridiculously simple snippets posted by those who can't or won't bother to do the work themselves?
Rob
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Neil Coffey
Обединеното кралство
Local time: 07:18
Френски на Английски
+ ...
АВТОР НА ТЕМАТА | philgoddard's example | Jan 21, 2010 |
philgoddard wrote:
I just voted "analisi della situazione finanziaria di un cliente" as non-PRO. Any bilingual person could translate that - it doesn't need a specialist translator. So was I wrong?
So personally I would say that is *is* wrong to treat this as non-PRO.
Maybe any Italian/English bilingual who has learnt the basics of bookkeeping in both languages could translate it. But are you seriously suggesting that *any* Italian/English bilingual will be able to properly choose between e.g. "financial standing", "financial position", "financial status"...?
| | | | Neil Coffey
Обединеното кралство
Local time: 07:18
Френски на Английски
+ ...
АВТОР НА ТЕМАТА | Mind-boggling simple... | Jan 21, 2010 |
philgoddard wrote:
I think these examples are very badly chosen. What it's basically saying is "only mind-bogglingly simple, near-monosyllabic words and phrases can be non-PRO".
Well, with the current definition, non-PRO queries will indeed on the whole be "mind-boggling simple". As a separate discussion, you could argue about the usefulness of that definition of non-PRO. But nonetheless, that's the definition.
Remember that many "true bilinguals" in reality may have had all or most of their formal education in one of their languages. So even the translation of a phrase like "situación financiera", "catégorie informatique", really may not be obvious to an average primary bilingual, whereas to somebody with a basic grounding in finance/IT in the two languages, whether they're a native speaker of the two languages or not, translations will be much more obvious.
[Edited at 2010-01-21 16:27 GMT]
| | | | Stéphanie Soudais (X)
Франция
Local time: 08:18
Английски на Френски
| non-pro, easy, etc. | Jan 21, 2010 |
Rob Grayson wrote:
To make matters worse, such questions are often posted as part of a series of similar questions, each of which has zero context and no explanation as to where the difficulty lies. One cannot help but get the feeling that KudoZ is often used by those who either do not have the linguistic skills to operate at a professional level, or are too lazy to bother doing any of their own research.
Rob
I believe that the problem is not that askers ask basic questions (or questions without context). The problem is that people keep on replying to them. Doing so, such askers are not encouraged to use other resources (or to explain what the context is).
Plus, they might not be aware of the following guideline:
"Help" KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted. Resources available include the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines, etc. If translations are found elsewhere and the decision to post a KudoZ question is made nevertheless, information found elsewhere should be included, along with an explanation of what further information is sought.
http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.1#2.1
Stéphanie
[Edited at 2010-01-21 16:32 GMT]
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