| Страници в темата: < [1 2 3 4] > | How to lose jobs Автор на темата: Robert Rietvelt
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Samuel Murray 
Нидерландия
Local time: 14:12
Член (2006)
Английски на Африкаанс
+ ...
| Clients are getting more savvy | Mar 11, 2021 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
I thought lets turn the question around: 'How to lose jobs? Well, one way is asking a normal and reasonable rate.
I think the problem is that clients are getting more savvy. Many agencies now work for end-clients who are actually quite familiar with the translation process and who have enough knowledge to know how to shop around for the cheapest deals. Also, in some cases, an agency's end-client is another agency. So it is unsurprising that agencies themselves are sometimes no longer the ones who set the rates.
An agency I used to work with all of a sudden stopped sending me jobs. After a year I wrote them with the question why I didn't hear anything from them anymore. The answer was that I was [now] too expensive...
The lesson here is that when an agency stops sending you work, it may simply be due to them not getting any work in your rate range, so as a freelance translator you have to actively track with which agencies you may be losing your preferred supplier status, and engage with them pro-actively about it.
How do you deal with this dilemma?
If you find that you are no longer getting the clients that you used to, and that this is largely due to pressures on rates, then your question should be "how to get more clients" (and "how to get better-paying clients"). If most of your current clients are cost-conscious, and you are unable to meet their reduced-cost needs, then you urgently need to get other (different) clients.
One tactic is to learn how to do more work in less time. Another tactic may be the opposite: learn to do more work in more time, and then market yourself to clients who prefer such translators.
[Edited at 2021-03-11 07:43 GMT]
| | | | 3089491 (X)
Люксембург
Local time: 14:12
| We did one mistake | Mar 11, 2021 |
We sometimes - rarely, very rarely - miscalculated the gain we had from CAT tools, and we could come across as greedy. Let's try to repair that if/when we can.
Other than that, let's prepare for a (mental) fight.
Google Translate is not a reason to lower our rates. MT is not a reason to lower our qualify of life.
| | | | | And not to forget... | Mar 11, 2021 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
For your information, my profile photo was taken about 4 years ago, when I applied for a new passport. I was 58 then, so do your maths.
... retired translators, who gain a too small pension, that is insufficient for all the comforts of life (i.e. when living in Amsterdam, Kiel or London), but still have a financial basis decent enough to offer translation services for far less than in earlier times before being pensionable. Perhaps you will think of the same in five years?
| | | | | Professional conscientiousness still matters | Mar 11, 2021 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
One thing I read I absolutely disagree with, is delivering low quality translations, because you are being paid a low rate. It is still up to you to accept a job or not. If you accept it, give it your best, whatever the price, or don't accept it at all. We are professionals, please keep that in mind.
Robert, I'm sure most of us - if not all of us on this thread - do share your opinion about conscientiousness and quality.
But there are no means to prevent some freelancers - "bottom feeders" as said above - from accepting low rate jobs, except their own professional conscientiousness.
It's a fact that there are no common regulations nor deontology rules between freelancers, agencies/outsourcers and final clients.
Maybe that's the bottom line.
[Modifié le 2021-03-11 09:26 GMT]
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| Not exactly what I said... | Mar 11, 2021 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
One thing I read I absolutely disagree with, is delivering low quality translations, because you are being paid a low rate. It is still up to you to accept a job or not. If you accept it, give it your best, whatever the price, or don't accept it at all. We are professionals, please keep that in mind.
I said "unconsciously"... I don't think any of us starts a job thinking "I'm paid peanuts, I'll give them peanuts"... at least I hope so! 
| | | | | I agree with this... | Mar 11, 2021 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
Baran Keki wrote:
But I still can't see how a 'bottom feeder' working for 0.05 EUR per word can survive in a place like Amsterdam or Hamburg.
I suspect a lot of these people are students or stay-at-home mums/dads. I know several people like this. In fact, I would say that a very hefty fraction of the translators working in my pair in the UK are not the sole earners in their households, or are effectively part-timers.
As it happens most of the ones I know seem to be good translators, and one in particular is probably as capable in her area of specialisation as I am in mine. But she's not the main breadwinner. That takes a lot of pressure off you, and also makes it easier to justify accepting low rates.
I think her rates are too low, but I also think that if she wanted to charge higher rates she'd probably also have to be more available for her clients, and given that she has a young family that's not likely to happen. If she only gets limited flows, then maybe she and others like her feel less able to negotiate better rates, and that causes price pressure at the margin.
Maybe this explains it. I don't know.
Regards,
Dan
For example, in Italy, we still have the mentality of "you are lucky if you have a job, any job", so if you are earning 1,000 EUR/month, you are privileged. People would accept any rate to make some money "on the side", especially if they are not the main breadwinner. The expectations are much lower and people tend to live in a simpler way.
| | | | Baran Keki
Турция
Local time: 16:12
Член
Английски на Turkish
| In defense of 'bottom feeders' | Mar 11, 2021 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
One thing I read I absolutely disagree with, is delivering low quality translations, because you are being paid a low rate.
I don't think anybody wants to deliberately sabotage themselves by delivering sh*t quality output except for those suffering from 'burnout syndrome' and cynicism. I met plenty of such translators while working as an in-house translator. They were mostly underpaid, overworked and didn't care about the quality of their work (I suppose that's what happens when you're under contact to deliver 3000 to 3500 words a day, everyday). So, no, nobody deliberately wants to deliver a bad translation, but errors and omissions will inevitably creep into your work when you deliver 3500 words a day to make up for your 'lost income'. It's just the nature of the beast. It can't be helped.
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
So, on the rates you mention, 0.05 to 0.07 EUR per word alone.
Actually those rates were mentioned by Thayenga and Meunier here. That's what got me started about the 'bottom feeders' (I hate using that word as much as the next man btw). I can't comprehend anybody living on such rates in Europe, but they apparently do. Though I must say I didn't take students, housewives and hobbyists into account.
Samuel Murray wrote:
One tactic is to learn how to do more work in less time.
That's exactly the crux of the problem. You can't do that if you want to deliver quality stuff.
I've just recently proofread a translation by a very good translator (a person who was teaching translation studies at a university when I was first starting out). It was a good translation, of course, but it wasn't completely free from errors. It was done in short time while working on other projects and perhaps he might have got away with those errors, but they were errors nonetheless.
| | | | Baran Keki
Турция
Local time: 16:12
Член
Английски на Turkish
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
For example, in Italy, we still have the mentality of "you are lucky if you have a job, any job", so if you are earning 1,000 EUR/month, you are privileged. People would accept any rate to make some money "on the side", especially if they are not the main breadwinner. The expectations are much lower and people tend to live in a simpler way.
This puts things into perspective. Now Gomorrah makes much more sense What an absolutely brilliant series that was!
Sorry about straying from the topic.
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Maciek Drobka
Полша
Local time: 14:12
Член (2006)
Английски на Polish
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| On more work in less time | Mar 11, 2021 |
Baran Keki wrote:
(...)
Samuel Murray wrote:
One tactic is to learn how to do more work in less time.
That's exactly the crux of the problem. You can't do that if you want to deliver quality stuff.
I've just recently proofread a translation by a very good translator (a person who was teaching translation studies at a university when I was first starting out). It was a good translation, of course, but it wasn't completely free from errors. It was done in short time while working on other projects and perhaps he might have got away with those errors, but they were errors nonetheless.
I can't get into Samuel's mind, but I think what he may have meant was doing more work in less time without degrading quality. A case in point I think is by using dictation software. While a quality dictation tool for my language pair is yet to appear, dictation software for more popular language pairs can speed up your work considerably based on what some Proz users report in these forums.
In a similar vein, I once had a client for whom I translated phone user interface strings. At the time, my usual procedure for all translations was to translate a segment/sentence, instantly review it, then move to the next segment/sentence, and then globally review the whole text once again after completing my first pass on all segments. Since UI strings are seldom creative and intellectually challenging, I decided I could skip the last global review pass for this particular client, leaving only a 'translation + self-review' combination at the segment/string level. This allowed me to do more work (and earn more) in less time (or do more work in the same amount of time, depending on how you look at it). The client never came back with a complaint, so it looks like the quality delivered by the slimmed-down model was satisfactory.
The approach above is only applicable in limited cases in my opinion, but it is a practicable example of how you can actually 'do more work in less time'. I am sure there are other ways.
| | | | | The art of losing jobs | Mar 11, 2021 |
I lose jobs (and clients) by not accepting to work at any rate and under any payment terms, for any subject and under any deadline or NDA/contract/special requirement. I lose jobs by not offering any linguistic service available under the sun in any language pair and direction I could handle (as a "true" bilingual, I could also translate into Greek).
I guess I am losing an awful lot of potential jobs and clients.
But am I really worst off?
On the contrary, ... See more I lose jobs (and clients) by not accepting to work at any rate and under any payment terms, for any subject and under any deadline or NDA/contract/special requirement. I lose jobs by not offering any linguistic service available under the sun in any language pair and direction I could handle (as a "true" bilingual, I could also translate into Greek).
I guess I am losing an awful lot of potential jobs and clients.
But am I really worst off?
On the contrary, I see this kind of loss as fundamental to my "success".
By only offering decent rates, accepting realistic deadlines and working on subjects and assignments I am comfortable with, I can afford to translate at a non breakneck pace, tackle more demanding translations (which help improve my craft) and ultimately deliver better output while enjoying the whole process.
And guess what? By doing so, maybe I am doing my fair share to uphold and not further erode the profession.
[Edited at 2021-03-11 14:05 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Baran Keki
Турция
Local time: 16:12
Член
Английски на Turkish
| That's great advice | Mar 11, 2021 |
Jean Dimitriadis wrote:
By offering only decent rates, accepting realistic deadlines and working on subjects and assignments I am comfortable with, I can afford to translate at a non breakneck pace, tackle more demanding translations (which help improve my craft) and ultimately deliver better output while enjoying the whole process.
I wish more people followed your example. But, sadly, for most of them undercutting others is just easier... I'll take your advice, though, working less for more money sounds more sensible to me.
Btw, how is you bitcoin investment going (I seem to remember you talking about it in some thread)? Has your relaxed attitude been influenced by your profits by any chance?
| | | | | Sometimes, just sometimes... | Mar 11, 2021 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
One thing I read I absolutely disagree with, is delivering low quality translations, because you are being paid a low rate. It is still up to you to accept a job or not. If you accept it, give it your best, whatever the price, or don't accept it at all. We are professionals, please keep that in mind.
I said "unconsciously"... I don't think any of us starts a job thinking "I'm paid peanuts, I'll give them peanuts"... at least I hope so!
No-one with a professional conscience would do that, of course. However, I have had the occasional request to "just translate it well enough for me to understand it", or words to that effect. In other words, do a quick approximate job and I'll pay less for it.
Such requests receive a flat "no".
What really? I put my reputation on the line? No way! A client's seemingly cavalier attitude is not one I am prepared to bear the brunt of as if the client does not understand correctly if I do a crap job, not to mention the risk of losing clients after having built up a reputation for quality over more than 25 years. I am still astounded when this is asked of me. And, sadly, a large number of agencies are simply not prepared to pay anything above the rate I received back in 1994 (or they put themselves in a situation whereby the rates they promise to clients do no allow them to, or (worse still) pretend they do).
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| Affording to lose | Mar 11, 2021 |
Baran Keki wrote:
I wish more people followed your example. But, sadly, for most of them undercutting others is just easier... I'll take your advice, though, working less for more money sounds more sensible to me.
Btw, how is you bitcoin investment going (I seem to remember you talking about it in some thread)? Has your relaxed attitude been influenced by your profits by any chance?
My crypto-investments have grown threefold since my January post, but I haven't withdrawn anything since, and at any rate, this hasn't changed my general "relaxed" approach (although having more money on the side supports it) which is the following:
In my dealings with new clients (or when making offers for existing clients assignments), I negotiate from a position of non-neediness, as if I can afford to lose the job/client. There is a threshold (rate, words per day, etc.) past which I just won't budge.
What I describe is more a psychological position than a material one. It is one of those areas where you can fake it until you make it.
Affording to lose gives real leverage. At least its impact is real.
[Edited at 2021-03-11 15:30 GMT]
| | | | | I try to do the opposite | Mar 11, 2021 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
... retired translators, who gain a too small pension, that is insufficient for all the comforts of life (i.e. when living in Amsterdam, Kiel or London), but still have a financial basis decent enough to offer translation services for far less than in earlier times before being pensionable. Perhaps you will think of the same in five years?
I try to do the opposite. My pension means that my bread and butter are secure. I live in a small town, however, off the beaten track, and if I want to see my widely scattered family for example, then I have to earn some more.
I am lucky, but I have reached a point when life is too short for poorly paid jobs, unless there is some other motivation, like a non-profit organization that I am actively interested in. (Then I may do the job for free.) I can afford to pick and choose, and if I turn down a job because it is poorly paid, I write and tell the agency what other clients pay me, and how much I would need to make a realistic living.
I feel that is the least I can do, but I know others are not so comfortably off, or there may not be so much work in their language pairs.
| | | | Tom in London
Обединеното кралство
Local time: 13:12
Член (2008)
Италиански на Английски
| Never lower your rate | Mar 11, 2021 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
An agency I used to work with all of a sudden stopped sending me jobs.....
How do you deal with this dilemma?
An agency did something similar to me, about a year ago: after many years of working happily for my standard rate, they suddenly stopped sending me work. I didn't ask why, because I knew why (and it's exactly as you explained in your original post).
Anyway I have plenty of other work.
What I have noticed, however, is that when they have a job that requires particular skill and care, they still send those jobs to me.
I have not lowered my rate, and they still pay it for those jobs.
[Edited at 2021-03-11 16:00 GMT]
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