| Страници в темата: [1 2 3] > | Machine translation and price reductions Автор на темата: Thomas Loob
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Thomas Loob 
Швеция
Local time: 06:03
Член
Английски на Swedish
+ ...
As many of you probably have experienced, machine translation (MT) is now so acceptable that translators are forced to accept discounts.
Have anyone argued that since the translator(s) have actually contributed to the mass of examples for the AI algorithms to chew on, that the amount of doscount should be shared? Example: if the discount is 25 %, it should be negotiated to, let's say, 12,5 %.
[Redigerad 2020-09-21 06:47 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
Обединеното кралство
Local time: 05:03
Член (2008)
Италиански на Английски
Thomas Loob wrote:
......machine translation (MT) is now ... acceptable ....
No, it isn't. I have never seen a machine translation that was acceptable.
[Edited at 2020-09-21 06:48 GMT]
| | | | Thomas Loob
Швеция
Local time: 06:03
Член
Английски на Swedish
+ ...
АВТОР НА ТЕМАТА | End of discussion? | Sep 21, 2020 |
I meant acceptable for editing.
My aim was not enter into a Luddite discussion, but to share experiences with neogtiation discounts for "translating" when a MT exists for every segment. MT through AI is here to stay and has improved massively that past 2-3 years.
[Redigerad 2020-09-21 06:59 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
Обединеното кралство
Local time: 05:03
Член (2008)
Италиански на Английски
Thomas Loob wrote:
MT through AI is here to stay and has improved massively that past 2-3 years.
And is still hopeless. MT requires a massive amount of work, correction, and rewriting before it becomes anything like acceptable. If you don't know this, I wonder if you are a translator at all?
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Thomas Loob
Швеция
Local time: 06:03
Член
Английски на Swedish
+ ...
АВТОР НА ТЕМАТА | Stick to the question | Sep 21, 2020 |
If you cannot discuss the question I raised, why not start another thread?
| | | | Erik Freitag
Германия
Local time: 06:03
Член (2006)
Холандски на Немски
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| Not a good idea - Slippery slope - generally bad pricing practice | Sep 21, 2020 |
I think this is a bad idea and a slippery slope. Why not split the discount three ways and give NMT programmers their share as well?
It seems that your pricing method is inherently flawed:
[quote]Thomas Loob wrote:
If the discount is 25 %, ...
[\quote]
What do you mean by "the discount"? Normally, a discount is something the supplier offers, and ultimately something that supplier and buyer agree upon. Your wording suggests that it is something the buyer demands, and you request it to be split.
Instead, you should assess whether using MT actually means saving time for you. If this is the case, you may chose to offer a lower price (or a discount, if you will) that is proportional to the amount of time you save.
All this is valid only as long as we're talking per-word rates. Your hourly rate should remain the same in all cases, anyway.
| | | | Thomas Loob
Швеция
Local time: 06:03
Член
Английски на Swedish
+ ...
АВТОР НА ТЕМАТА | Sorry for bringing up the subject | Sep 21, 2020 |
It seems fellow translators are as agressive as the companies some work for.
"Slippery slope", "flawed" etc.
Sorry for bringing up the subject of trying to conceptualise arguments to limit the "discount" some of us are "offered".
The moderator may delete this post.
| | | | Tom in London
Обединеното кралство
Local time: 05:03
Член (2008)
Италиански на Английски
The problem is that some people are in love with technology, even when it doesn't work.
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Elena Feriani
Италия
Local time: 06:03
Член
Френски на Италиански
+ ...
I am ok with applying a 10-20% discount (compared to my translation rate) for MTPE jobs, if the client uses a well trained engine, not a random one that I can find for free in the internet.
| | | | | Your original idea is not feasible | Sep 21, 2020 |
Thomas, if you start a discussion, you should be prepared to encounter opinions that differ from your own. That includes the assumptions you make in your initial posting. Many of us are not forced to accept discounts. Some of us might be, but if one party in a deal is "forced" to accept something, this is mostly because of the superior negotiating power of the other party, not necessarily due to actual acceptability of MT results.
Anyway, even if we accept your assumption for a mome... See more Thomas, if you start a discussion, you should be prepared to encounter opinions that differ from your own. That includes the assumptions you make in your initial posting. Many of us are not forced to accept discounts. Some of us might be, but if one party in a deal is "forced" to accept something, this is mostly because of the superior negotiating power of the other party, not necessarily due to actual acceptability of MT results.
Anyway, even if we accept your assumption for a moment, the idea that translators should be "rewarded" for their part in feeding MT engines with existing translations is not feasible. Translations that were used for training MT engines were probably taken from the Internet and simply appropriated as free input. I happen to believe that this is actually a good idea and all information should be free, but that's just me. As a translator, I reap enormous benefits from the availability of free information on the Internet that I can scan and use for my own purposes; when some of the information I create myself by translating appears on the Internet free for others to search and use, I would be very hypocritical to complain and/or ask for compensation.
Discounts, however, are simply a matter of negotiation. When I accept a translation job, the typical idea is that I am the professional who decides what tools are the best tools for the job. It is not for the client/agency to dictate which tools I use, be it a certain CAT or a certain MT, if any. Consequently, it is also not for them to dictate any discounts. I have cases where I had to accept that the agency wishes to use a certain tool like a platform or a CAT, but in these cases I charge higher rates for the inconvenience and extra effort this causes me, not lower rates. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thomas Loob
Швеция
Local time: 06:03
Член
Английски на Swedish
+ ...
АВТОР НА ТЕМАТА | The reality vs. reality | Sep 21, 2020 |
1. If you are not more or less forced, why discuss it when it doesn't apply to you?
2. The first posts were straw men, irrelevant.
Your assumption that the material from MT engines are taken from the net is probably not correct as much content is already translated by bad MT engines, at least in my language. Ten years ago it was possible to search for correct language on the net, now it is almost impossible. AFAIK the content for proprietary MT engines is taken from previous t... See more 1. If you are not more or less forced, why discuss it when it doesn't apply to you?
2. The first posts were straw men, irrelevant.
Your assumption that the material from MT engines are taken from the net is probably not correct as much content is already translated by bad MT engines, at least in my language. Ten years ago it was possible to search for correct language on the net, now it is almost impossible. AFAIK the content for proprietary MT engines is taken from previous translations, made by us.
Yes, the internet is great sometimes, but I pay for it. Twice. First for my own connection and then through income taxation/corporate tax.
The material is put there voluntarily.
The strategy of not accepting a job is fine as long as there are still other jobs without MT. What do you do when all contain MT?
At least there will be an objective argument for lowering the discount, except crossing your arms and say: No, thank you.
But anyway, it seems the concept is not viable, because we are unorganised. Not much to do about that. Good luck to you all.
[Redigerad 2020-09-21 10:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Нидерландия
Local time: 06:03
Член (2006)
Английски на Африкаанс
+ ...
Thomas Loob wrote:
Has anyone ever argued that since the translators have actually contributed to the mass of examples that the AI algorithms chew on, that the amount of discount should be shared?
I would not argue that, simply because my translations' contribution to the "mass of examples" would such a tiny amount (relative to the rest of the mass of examples) that any fair discount on the discount would be less than, say, 0.001%. Even if I submit 1000 segments, those 1000 segments will be mixed with a million other segments, and may not even improve the quality of future machine translations by as much as a thousandth.
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Thomas Loob
Швеция
Local time: 06:03
Член
Английски на Swedish
+ ...
АВТОР НА ТЕМАТА | World turned upside down | Sep 21, 2020 |
I am talking abut translators as a collective here reaping benefits from their own work.
The medieval concept of "fair" price was a concept to protect the producer, the worker.
You use it to protect companies.
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I take a similar approach to Eleni: first I evaluate the engine and the MT workflow as a whole to see to what extent it speeds up my work for a specific account. That way I can tell what kind of production is realistic, and whether I am still having fun. Only then do I decide whether it makes sense to offer a discount on my word rate, preferably in such a way that my hourly rate would actually come out a bit higher, but definitely not lower.
I always aim at long-term cooperations, a... See more I take a similar approach to Eleni: first I evaluate the engine and the MT workflow as a whole to see to what extent it speeds up my work for a specific account. That way I can tell what kind of production is realistic, and whether I am still having fun. Only then do I decide whether it makes sense to offer a discount on my word rate, preferably in such a way that my hourly rate would actually come out a bit higher, but definitely not lower.
I always aim at long-term cooperations, and in general my clients are quite discerning: they won't force MT for accounts where it doesn't work, and they won't force prices that are unreasonable. But for some text types a good engine can definitely work quite well, at least in my language combinations. The way I see it, the trick is to not agree to any kind of fixed PEMT rate without knowing how well the engine and the workflow as a whole perform.
But obviously negotiation power becomes a factor there: not everyone has clients who are happy to have their translators test procedures before agreeing to a price. There's surely agencies who will try to use MT for everything, even if it's not a good choice for certain texts and language combinations. And let's be honest: not everyone has the luxury to decline jobs that pay less than they'd like, but still more than twiddling thumbs would do. ▲ Collapse
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Thomas Loob wrote:
I meant acceptable for editing.
My aim was not enter into a Luddite discussion, but to share experiences with neogtiation discounts for "translating" when a MT exists for every segment. MT through AI is here to stay and has improved massively that past 2-3 years.
Anything can be 'edited', but in my subject fields, even when I am offered 'latest and greatest, custom-trained, nearly human' MT engines, editing the output takes me LONGER than translating the source from scratch. Accordingly, instead of a discount, I would ask for a surcharge.
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